The Gender Debate

[Billy Jean King]

11 hours ago, f_c_dundee said:

In what way?

Seriously  ? It's glaringly obvious when it comes to folk saying self ID is enabling chance / opportune offenders.  

[Leith Green]

22 hours ago, f_c_dundee said:

Self ID as law isn't the issue though. It's the fact that it's already been presented as the right thing to do and been accepted in so many places.

 

My workplace is one of the ones with a policy that says if I'm unhappy that a man identifying as a woman wants to use the toilets or changing rooms, I should go elsewhere.

Your workplace cant order trans people which toilets to use, but it can suggest (to all employees) that if any employee is uncomfortable, they are free to use other ones. This only seems sensible.

In the real world, I would suggest that if a trans woman in a workplace was going to use toilets, they would be far more likely to use a different space themselves (like a single cubicle disabled toilet) for reasons of embarrassment etc.

Anybody using the "Aye, but rapists" response to that hasnt really thought it through - because if you are an opportunist rapist of whatever gender, the suggestion that they wont do their dirty deeds unless they have self i.d. as a woman is - frankly - laughable.

I dont know how large your workplace is, but I would also - respectfully - suggest that the numbers identifying as a trans woman will be tiny - in fact in most workplaces will be zero.

Its not exactly rocket science, or that difficult to navigate to be honest.

 

 

[f_c_dundee]

2 minutes ago, Leith Green said:

Your workplace cant order trans people which toilets to use, but it can suggest (to all employees) that if any employee is uncomfortable, they are free to use other ones. This only seems sensible.

In the real world, I would suggest that if a trans woman in a workplace was going to use toilets, they would be far more likely to use a different space themselves (like a single cubicle disabled toilet) for reasons of embarrassment etc.

Anybody using the "Aye, but rapists" response to that hasnt really thought it through - because if you are an opportunist rapist of whatever gender, the suggestion that they wont do their dirty deeds unless they have self i.d. as a woman is - frankly - laughable.

I dont know how large your workplace is, but I would also - respectfully - suggest that the numbers identifying as a trans woman will be tiny - in fact in most workplaces will be zero.

Its not exactly rocket science, or that difficult to navigate to be honest.

 

 

Sigh.  It's not all panicking about rapists - it's about the right of everyone to have privacy and dignity in their own single sex space.  It is however laughable to suggest anyone said that men would 'only' do their dirty deeds if they can identify as a woman. It's that you are increasing the opportunity by lowering the existing barriers.  Of course they will chance it if people are less likely to challenge them.

My workplace is massive, it's the biggest employer in the area in fact.  One transwoman that I am aware of in our workplace, does choose to use the women's locker room/toilets.  I wasn't aware as it's in a different part of the site than me, but our v chatty cleaner was complaining that he asked his boss about it, and she said "well we can't really  say anything about it".  There's at least one young trans identifying female, I'd be surprised if they use the men's though, by male colleagues accounts they are no v pleasant.

There is a balance between respecting how people want to express themselves and declaring everyone a bigot for not accepting every identity as fact and accepting anyone who chooses into wherever they want. No?

[Benjamin_Nevis]

9 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

lowering the existing barriers

Basically a toilet door sign 

[Leith Green]

12 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

I wasn't aware as it's in a different part of the site than me, but our v chatty cleaner was complaining that he asked his boss about it, and she said "well we can't really  say anything about it".

Needs to be posted on facebook if you want more likes for this.........

[Wee Bully]

1 hour ago, f_c_dundee said:

Sigh.  It's not all panicking about rapists - it's about the right of everyone to have privacy and dignity in their own single sex space.  It is however laughable to suggest anyone said that men would 'only' do their dirty deeds if they can identify as a woman. It's that you are increasing the opportunity by lowering the existing barriers.  Of course they will chance it if people are less likely to challenge them.

My workplace is massive, it's the biggest employer in the area in fact.  One transwoman that I am aware of in our workplace, does choose to use the women's locker room/toilets.  I wasn't aware as it's in a different part of the site than me, but our v chatty cleaner was complaining that he asked his boss about it, and she said "well we can't really  say anything about it".  There's at least one young trans identifying female, I'd be surprised if they use the men's though, by male colleagues accounts they are no v pleasant.

There is a balance between respecting how people want to express themselves and declaring everyone a bigot for not accepting every identity as fact and accepting anyone who chooses into wherever they want. No?

So, basically there is no one stopping you from having “privacy and dignity in your own single sex space”.  
 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

I don’t know about workplaces but in Scottish schools trans pupils are not allowed to use shared facilities unless cubicles are floor to ceiling cubicles.

For most schools, and this includes mine, it means trans pupils use single toilet facilities.

[J_Stewart]

3 hours ago, f_c_dundee said:

Sigh.  It's not all panicking about rapists - it's about the right of everyone to have privacy and dignity in their own single sex space.  It is however laughable to suggest anyone said that men would 'only' do their dirty deeds if they can identify as a woman. It's that you are increasing the opportunity by lowering the existing barriers.  Of course they will chance it if people are less likely to challenge them.

With these being legitimate concerns and all, I presume you'll be able to provide evidence from the 11 countries in Europe who already have an implemented GRA that shows that the "increased opportunity from lowered barriers" has led to an increase in predators "chancing it" and more assaults occurring in single sex spaces?

[Wee Bully]

2 hours ago, J_Stewart said:

With these being legitimate concerns and all, I presume you'll be able to provide evidence from the 11 countries in Europe who already have an implemented GRA that shows that the "increased opportunity from lowered barriers" has led to an increase in predators "chancing it" and more assaults occurring in single sex spaces?

I tried that. There is a prisoner in Ireland apparently 

[Leith Green]

I see The Stand has told Joanna Cherry they have had to cancel her show during the festival because they cant guarantee enough staff to be legally compliant.

It appears the reason is that so many staff disagree with Cherrys stance on GRR (I believe that at least one show at The Stand in Glasgow has been cancelled because the comedian was so pissed off that Cherry was appearing in the summer).

Cherry is already threatening legal action over this - should be fun at the next Westminster SNPs get together, what with her colleague Tommy Sheppard MSP being the founder of The Stand...........

 

 

[Sherrif John Bunnell]

Get it right up her. Although booking the most humourless women on the planet for a show at a comedy club during a comedy festival doesn't seem like the best idea tbh.

[Trogdor]

I suspect she'll do quite well out of it both financially and legally. The case is shooty in, there is no legal justification for cancelling the booking. I suspect the commercial contract didnt have a provision covering this.

There will be a financial settlement and JC will have her views magnified. A case study in the futile nature of cancel culture if ever there were one!

[sophia]

7 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

I suspect she'll do quite well out of it both financially and legally. The case is shooty in, there is no legal justification for cancelling the booking. I suspect the commercial contract didnt have a provision covering this.

There will be a financial settlement and JC will have her views magnified. A case study in the futile nature of cancel culture if ever there were one!

Yes indeed, it's all getting rather silly and the silly are seeing to that 

[razamanaz]

Joanna Cherry on the phone-in on BBC Radio Scotland just now 

[Leith Green]

5 hours ago, orfc said:

She had the entire British government over a barrel with her legal nous

You mean when she tried to block the Brexit legislation along with Jolyon Maughan and lost?

Or some other time?

[Sherrif John Bunnell]

9 hours ago, razamanaz said:

Joanna Cherry on the phone-in on BBC Radio Scotland just now 

It's sickening to see her deplatformed like this.

[sophia]

India Willoughby was interviewed by Johnnie Beattie this afternoon on the Edinburgh malarkey. I'm not sure there was any light amongst the heat and however this issue is eventually reconciled, it'll be prompted by voices more reasonable in debate than India. 

 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

21 hours ago, Trogdor said:

I suspect she'll do quite well out of it both financially and legally. The case is shooty in, there is no legal justification for cancelling the booking. I suspect the commercial contract didnt have a provision covering this.

There will be a financial settlement and JC will have her views magnified. A case study in the futile nature of cancel culture if ever there were one!

It will depend very much on the small print in the booking terms and conditions.

I wouldn't presume this is as straightforward as you think.

[Trogdor]

10 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

It will depend very much on the small print in the booking terms and conditions.

I wouldn't presume this is as straightforward as you think.

It will be straight forward. Standard T&Cs don't include clauses to cancel an event because of your employee's feelings. I would be absolutely astonished if this contract included such a break clause. See Graham versus SEC for precedent in Scots law.

If you compare it to Section 35, this is shooty in. I haven't seen a single eminent lawyer believing otherwise. For the avoidance of doubt, the 'fox clubber' Jolyon Maugham does not count.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Trogdor

[The_Kincardine]

22 hours ago, Sherrif John Bunnell said:

Get it right up her. Although booking the most humourless women on the planet for a show at a comedy club during a comedy festival doesn't seem like the best idea tbh.

It's 'fringe theatre' - a term E'burgh gave to the world.  In the late 70s - when I started going - it was variously shite, avant-gard, lewd, nude, dull AF or bewildering.  Now and then you unearthed a diamond.

But that was what 'fringe' was.  You went to 4 performances and were lucky if one was decent.  All 4 may well have been offensive (we hoped).

Scroll on to 2023 and at a fringe event - In an alt-comedy club - the staff are scared that a middle-aged, lesbian, human rights lawyer and MP may say hurty words.