The Gender Debate

[welshbairn]

7 minutes ago, Jambomo said:

Oh no, I don’t mean the stupid toilet and changing room safe space debate, yes that I think is just clearly people trying to repress transrights.

I mean the wide paradigm of being able to change gender, not just to dress or live as a member of the opposite gender but to medically become them. That’s (in the context of history anyway) completely new, that’s the big shift and that’s what I think many people find challenging. For centuries biological sex was the same as gender and that was unalterable - I don’t think you can deny that recent medical developments changing this is a real shift in this area. 

As a follower of Ian M Bank's Culture SF series, I'd welcome a future where sex as well as gender is an optional thing, and reversable. I think an awful lot of the trauma about this very rare thing is fear of the unknown, what we're comfortable with like an old comforting blanket. It's a brave new world out there people! 

[Sergeant Wilson]

8 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

It's not that simple. Some people of both sexes are absolutely fucking terrified of what they see as men coming into their daughters toilets. It's possible to appreciate both sides of the argument on this issue and still be very worried about your kids.

We're not doing anyone any favours by simply automatically castigating these people as transphobes.

What are the chances though? It hardly like Dawn of the Dead with thousands of undead transexuals trying to get in to the women's lavvy.

[Bairnardo]

What are the chances though? It hardly like Dawn of the Dead with thousands of undead transexuals trying to get in to the women's lavvy.

Indeed.... What could be the reason for amplifying this very specific, and impossible to quantify scenario I wonder [emoji848]

[Jambomo]

6 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

What are the chances though? It hardly like Dawn of the Dead with thousands of undead transexuals trying to get in to the women's lavvy.

I would certainly make going for a pee more interesting. 

[Bairnardo]

I would certainly make going for a pee more interesting. 

Might cut down on the time yous spend in there socialising tbf

[welshbairn]

5 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

What are the chances though? It hardly like Dawn of the Dead with thousands of undead transexuals trying to get in to the women's lavvy.

If they were that desperate to watch women gossiping and doing their lippy they'd already be in there. Gender recognition is unnecessarily awkward and intrusive now but I'd imagine there are there are quite a few who have passed the threshold. Maybe they could join together and do a ladies toilets tour like a pub crawl to make JKR feel vindicated.

[carpetmonster]

3 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

6 minutes ago, Jambomo said:

I would certainly make going for a pee more interesting. 

Might cut down on the time yous spend in there socialising tbf

I mean, if we're cool with cis men conducting bathroom invasions I'll go in on a Sunday morning after a night on the Guinness and have the place cleared faster than Ibrox at the 84th minute. 

[Jambomo]

If it’s bathroom invasions you want then Hampden Park during the Scotland matches is the place to go - I’ve seen plenty of men in there who clearly can’t read door signs when they are wasted.

[scottsdad]

3 hours ago, oaksoft said:

You're changing a millenia-old definition of what a woman and a man is without providing an explanation of what the new definition is. 

A millenia-old definition of a relationship is between a man and a woman. Times move on and so should we. 

[Mr Waldo]

9 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

A millenia-old definition of a relationship is between a man and a woman. Times move on and so should we. 

OK.

What is a 'man'

What is a 'woman'?

Genuine curious questions.

 

[welshbairn]

38 minutes ago, Mr Waldo said:

OK.

What is a 'man'

What is a 'woman'?

Genuine curious questions.

 

Has that question ever challenged you so far in your life, like have you ever worried about how to address somebody because you're confused about their gender? If not, I wouldn't worry about it, if yes, how did you handle it?

[101]

9 hours ago, oaksoft said:

as with everything, it's extreme trans-activists and the Woke Folk who are getting in the way, holding things back and causing a backlash amongst large portions of the public

Are you laying all of societies ills at the door of "Trans-activists" and "woke folk" I'm not even sure what you mean by these things but it seems a remarkable position to take 

[carpetmonster]

2 minutes ago, 101 said:

Are you laying all of societies ills at the door of "Trans-activists" and "woke folk" I'm not even sure what you mean by these things but it seems a remarkable position to take 

Trans-activists exist only as a Graham Linehan cancelwank fantasy.

Given ‘woke’ means ‘those in the Black American community and their allies who are aware that Black folks are treated unfairly by those in authority’ then why he thinks he gets to moan about other people changing the definition of words is entirely beyond me. 

 

[welshbairn]

I've got Oaksoft on ignore as an angry Major (retd) from Dorking writing contradictory letters to local papers every day, but, as he's been quoted, the idea that vast swathes of the populace are concerned about gender issues is nonsense, it's a debate almost entirely confined to twitterati on both sides. I haven't met a trans person, like most of us probably, but I suspect most of them wish we'd just mind our own business instead of making them central to the equally daft, disingenuously created myth of the "culture wars".

Edited July 29, 2022 by welshbairn

[BFTD]

26 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I've got Oaksoft on ignore as an angry Major (retd) from Dorking writing contradictory letters to local papers every day, but, as he's been quoted, the idea that vast swathes of the populace are concerned about gender issues is nonsense, it's a debate almost entirely confined to twitterati on both sides. I haven't met a trans person, like most of us probably, but I suspect most of them wish we'd just mind our own business instead of making them central to the equally daft, disingenuously created myth of the "culture wars".

I quite enjoyed the idea that people shouldn't be labelled as transphobes just because they have irrational fears about trans people, from someone who likes to complain about other people changing the meaning of words. The master comedian at work.

His recent switch to cod-libertarianism is presumably behind this whole "ain't nobody tellin' me what to think" stuff on this issue. Poor taste, but hopefully nobody's taking it seriously.

[101]

8 hours ago, welshbairn said:

I haven't met a trans person, like most of us probably, but I suspect most of them wish we'd just mind our own business

There is every chance you have and just haven't noticed.

Contrary to the handringing you won't be sexually assaulted by them there are by and large very nice people 

[Sergeant Wilson]

9 hours ago, oaksoft said:

Fine. I'm genuinely all for change.

You'll  make a handsome woman.

[coprolite]

19 hours ago, Jambomo said:

Oh no, I don’t mean the stupid toilet and changing room safe space debate, yes that I think is just clearly people trying to repress transrights.

I mean the wide paradigm of being able to change gender, not just to dress or live as a member of the opposite gender but to medically become them. That’s (in the context of history anyway) completely new, that’s the big shift and that’s what I think many people find challenging. For centuries biological sex was the same as gender and that was unalterable - I don’t think you can deny that recent medical developments changing this is a real shift in this area. 

Not exactly the same thing but there have been historical alterations of people's physyical sexual characteristics. The Ottoman and other cultures used to castrate boys so they could be safely left with Harems and the Italians had castrato singers into the 20th century. 

[Detournement]

5 hours ago, 101 said:

There is every chance you have and just haven't noticed.

Contrary to the handringing you won't be sexually assaulted by them there are by and large very nice people 

It would be a hard shift being Trans if you have to meet a quota of highland based pensioners.

Most people have never met Trans people because they mainly live in cities and are younger than average.

 

 

[carpetmonster]

27 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Honestly, I don't know why you guys don't just say "you know what Oaky? I have no idea what a woman or a man is, now that we're not allowed to take biology into account".

All this wittering pish about transphobia is just as ridiculous a distraction from your own total ignorance as @welshbairn's suggestions that we "don't ask awkward questions" and that "a woman is a woman".

Outside the politics forum it's rare and fascinating to see people tie themselves up in so many knots of their own making. 

Outside the political arena it's rare and depressing to see someone talk exclusively in misnomers, buzzwords that they don't understand and shitty attempts at gotchas.

Outside of politics, it's rare and disgusting to see bigotry that ruins, and costs, lives dismissed as 'wittering pish'.

Outside of politicians, its baffling to see someone open with saying they have no interest in a subject and then become an expert in it within a day; not from doing any sort of research, just by repeating the same tropes over and over because they have a terminal dose of main character syndrome that needs to be indulged.