The Queen of the South thread

[Skyline Drifter]

8 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

When people were saying how useless Sammon is because he doesn't score many, the comparison with the forward about whom there is the most brazen ever revisionism in evidence, seemed inescapable.

That's all.

 

 

I'm not really drawing that direct a comparison - I'm not actually deranged. 

It's just that apparently we're not allowed to consider Dykes' goalscoring record as a factor when considering his worth, yet it's considered defining where other forwards are concerned.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, I've no desire to see Sammon here.

Wow. You actually were referring to Dykes then. Apologies for giving you the benefit of the doubt.

[Monkey Tennis]

7 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Wow. You actually were referring to Dykes then. Apologies for giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Always a mistake.

If you choose to ignore the point I'm actually making, that's up to you.

[19QOS19]

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

When people were saying how useless Sammon is because he doesn't score many, the comparison with the forward about whom there is the most brazen ever revisionism in evidence, seemed inescapable.

That's all.

 

 

I'm not really drawing that direct a comparison - I'm not actually deranged. 

It's just that apparently we're not allowed to consider Dykes' goalscoring record as a factor when considering his worth, yet it's considered defining where other forwards are concerned.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, I've no desire to see Sammon here.

I don't think many can argue his goalscoring record was great for us, because it absolutely wasn't. But again, I think if he was the focal point of our attack it may have been better. I'm pretty confident it would have been the case when you look at his performances after leaving us. His time at Palmerston has been the only place so far where his assists are higher than his goals. That's before we take into account the number of games he was played out wide for us. 

[Monkey Tennis]

16 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

I don't think many can argue his goalscoring record was great for us, because it absolutely wasn't. But again, I think if he was the focal point of our attack it may have been better. I'm pretty confident it would have been the case when you look at his performances after leaving us. His time at Palmerston has been the only place so far where his assists are higher than his goals. That's before we take into account the number of games he was played out wide for us. 

All fair.

I do think his role in Dobbie's brilliance gets wildly overstated though.

Most of that (although not in SD's case admittedly) owes much to what he did after he left.

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, 19QOS19 said:

I don't think many can argue his goalscoring record was great for us, because it absolutely wasn't. But again, I think if he was the focal point of our attack it may have been better. I'm pretty confident it would have been the case when you look at his performances after leaving us. His time at Palmerston has been the only place so far where his assists are higher than his goals. That's before we take into account the number of games he was played out wide for us. 

Another thing regularly overstated. He really didn't play that often out wide for us, yet some would have you believe Livingston turned him into a forward from being a winger! (appreciate that's not what you're saying but I've seen it written). He 1st got into the side as a wide attacker certainly under Skelton. Gavin liked to have two big tall wingers who were good in the air and he played Dykes left and Grant Anderson on the right. But Skelton was manager for 20 games and Dykes didn't play in all of those either. Looking at the OS suggests he started 15 games as a wide player, one of which was as a wing back!

Gary Naysmith dumped that system as soon as he got here, levering Grant Anderson out of the club and dropping Dykes to the bench mostly to begin with as he played Dobbie and Lyle up top and brought in the likes of Dom Thomas to play wide along with a vaguely fit Carmichael. I'm not sure Dykes ever played a wider role for us again. When he came on as a sub or got back in the starting line up it was in a central role. I think his last game out wide for us was the Scottish Cup disaster at Albion Rovers in November 16, and he played the 2nd half of that one in central midfield! He played another two and a half seasons after that as either a centre forward, or in behind the forward.

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

All fair.

I do think his role in Dobbie's brilliance gets wildly overstated though.

Most of that (although not in SD's case admittedly) owes much to what he did after he left.

You and I will never remotely agree on this. It's worth noting however that Stephen Dobbie himself agrees with me.

[Monkey Tennis]

Just now, Skyline Drifter said:

Another thing regularly overstated. He really didn't play that often out wide for us, yet some would have you believe Livingston turned him into a forward from being a winger! (appreciate that's not what you're saying but I've seen it written). He 1st got into the side as a wide attacker certainly under Skelton. Gavin liked to have two big tall wingers who were good in the air and he played Dykes left and Grant Anderson on the right. But Skelton was manager for 20 games and Dykes didn't play in all of those either. Looking at the OS suggests he started 15 games as a wide player, one of which was as a wing back!

Gary Naysmith dumped that system as soon as he got here, levering Grant Anderson out of the club and dropping Dykes to the bench mostly to begin with as he played Dobbie and Lyle up top and brought in the likes of Dom Thomas to play wide along with a vaguely fit Carmichael. I'm not sure Dykes ever played a wider role for us again. When he came on as a sub or got back in the starting line up it was in a central role. I think his last game out wide for us was the Scottish Cup disaster at Albion Rovers in November 16, and he played the 2nd half of that one in central midfield! He played another two and a half seasons after that as either a centre forward, or in behind the forward.

You and I will never remotely agree on this. It's worth noting however that Stephen Dobbie himself agrees with me.

Does he?

I remember him being asked about this in a Sportsound interview and I thought his response was polite but not enthusiastic.

[Otis Blue]

3 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

... the comparison with the forward (ie Dykes) about whom there is the most brazen ever revisionism in evidence, seemed inescapable ...

Oh aye ... "revisionism" ... that good old P&B standard.  Not sure who exactly that's aimed at but I've consistently stated that Dykes stood out and offered something different to what we'd had before since that first day I saw him tormenting the United defence up at Tannadice, and my opinion about him never altered from that day on.  Maybe that's the definition of "revisionism", who knows?

[Monkey Tennis]

19 minutes ago, Otis Blue said:

Oh aye ... "revisionism" ... that good old P&B standard.  Not sure who exactly that's aimed at but I've consistently stated that Dykes stood out and offered something different to what we'd had before since that first day I saw him tormenting the United defence up at Tannadice, and my opinion about him never altered from that day on.  Maybe that's the definition of "revisionism", who knows?

Maybe you did rave about him constantly.  To be fair, SD sort of did, but if you joined him, you'd have been in a minority at the time.

There was a lot of frustration around a lot of his performances when he was here, but you wouldn't think so, to read of him on here these days.  Dobbie's starting to look like a bit part player.

[Dougie Mills]

Don’t understand the rough ride Monkey is getting here to be honest.  He quite rightly pointed out on similarity in the strike rates between the two and at no point stated Sammon was a better player.   Dykes was raw here and left Livingston twice the player that was here.

[Monkey Tennis]

I was really just saying that a low goal scoring rate isn't always regarded as sufficient evidence to write off a front player.

In truth, I wasn't comparing the abilities of the two players at all.

 

That point seems to have escaped some.

[19QOS19]

37 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Maybe you did rave about him constantly.  To be fair, SD sort of did, but if you joined him, you'd have been in a minority at the time.

There was a lot of frustration around a lot of his performances when he was here, but you wouldn't think so, to read of him on here these days.  Dobbie's starting to look like a bit part player.

I'm the first to admit when I've got it wrong with players - I couldn't stand Mercer for ages then was sad to see him go. McShane took an age to convince me he was a good player and again I was gutted to see him leave. 

Dykes was absolutely the same for me. Before his last season (sure it was that one) I can remember being annoyed we weren't letting him go. It took me an age to like him but his final season (possibly 2) I thought he was outstanding. His technical ability was brilliant for a player his size and he was a great partner for Dobbs. Before he left I knew it would be for a side bigger than us. 

I think my opinion on him to wondering Livi fans was that he was a great prospect but would need someone alongside him as his goalscoring wasn't the best. But that part obviously became better after he left us. 

[Skyline Drifter]

4 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I was really just saying that a low goal scoring rate isn't always regarded as sufficient evidence to write off a front player.

In truth, I wasn't comparing the abilities of the two players at all.

 

That point seems to have escaped some.

The person the point is most escaping appears to be you!

You're absolutely right in that a low goalscoring rate does not in itself represent enough evidence to write off a front player. Dykes is ample evidence of that. However, the operative point is that you did NOT rate Dykes when here. Therefore supposedly playing Devil's Advocate for Sammon on the basis that Dykes didn't either really doesn't wash for you. You were so desperate to wheel out your "Dykes wasn't very good when here" mantra that you actually used the example wrongly.

[Monkey Tennis]

3 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

The person the point is most escaping appears to be you!

You're absolutely right in that a low goalscoring rate does not in itself represent enough evidence to write off a front player. Dykes is ample evidence of that. However, the operative point is that you did NOT rate Dykes when here. Therefore supposedly playing Devil's Advocate for Sammon on the basis that Dykes didn't either really doesn't wash for you. You were so desperate to wheel out your "Dykes wasn't very good when here" mantra that you actually used the example wrongly.

It is a mantra I'm keen on as you know. I don't see how I've used it wrongly though. I

I'm not attempting to act as any sort of advocate - devil's or otherwise - for Sammon.

[Skyline Drifter]

41 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Maybe you did rave about him constantly.  To be fair, SD sort of did, but if you joined him, you'd have been in a minority at the time.

There was a lot of frustration around a lot of his performances when he was here, but you wouldn't think so, to read of him on here these days.  Dobbie's starting to look like a bit part player.

"Sort of"? I was a big fan from the day I saw him play against Annan pre-season in his first outing for the first team.

I talked to a lot of opposition managers and directors in his last year and a half with us in particular. Time after time they came out after the game raving primarily about Dykes, not Dobbie.

You were far from alone in suggesting Dykes was stealing a place in the team though. I'll concede there was more than you called it entirely wrongly. I'm not sure it was as much an overwhelming majority as you're implying though. I'd have said it was closer to 50/50, maybe slightly more doubters than fans. I also think a lot of people (not saying you're one) decided they weren't going to like him regardless because of the off filed shenanigans, rightly or wrongly.

[Slipmat]

7 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

I talked to a lot of opposition managers and directors in his last year and a half with us in particular. Time after time they came out after the game raving primarily about Dykes, not Dobbie.

 

Did you ever speak to Peter Houston about Dykes or Dobbie after the game when Queens skelped his Falkirk side 4-1 and he then publicly denounced the Queens team as "journeymen"?  Would love to know if that was a slip of the tongue or if he genuinely meant it.

[ayrunitedfw]

A Dunfermline fan saying on their thread that Ruari Paton has signed a PCA with ourselves. Very impressive scoring record this season. Likely to be able to make the step up?

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, Slipmat said:

Did you ever speak to Peter Houston about Dykes or Dobbie after the game when Queens skelped his Falkirk side 4-1 and he then publicly denounced the Queens team as "journeymen"?  Would love to know if that was a slip of the tongue or if he genuinely meant it.

I don't think I've ever spoken to Peter Houston at all to be honest.

[Skyline Drifter]

26 minutes ago, ayrunitedfw said:

A Dunfermline fan saying on their thread that Ruari Paton has signed a PCA with ourselves. Very impressive scoring record this season. Likely to be able to make the step up?

I've heard he's signed a pre contract with PSG.

There, it must be true, someone just said it on the internet.

[Distant Doonhamer]

3 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

I've heard he's signed a pre contract with PSG.

There, it must be true, someone just said it on the internet.

Messi is leaving PSG in the summer. Makes sense they'll be looking for a suitable replacement.

[Skyline Drifter]

2 minutes ago, Distant Doonhamer said:

Messi is leaving PSG in the summer. Makes sense they'll be looking for a suitable replacement.

Indeed, it's why the rumour makes so much sense. I expect it will be in the Daily Record tomorrow.