The Queen of the South thread

[Slipmat]

14 hours ago, Rjc-1988 said:

Agree with what you say. 

The cull needs to be brutal and we need to terminate the second year on both Reilly and P McKay deals if at all possible. Personally I would let McKechnie go but the fact that he has pace might swing his retention.

I thought we had a good crop of local youngsters this year but clearly that was a figment of my imagination. WG constantly talked them up and then never gave them a look in so that speaks volumes. Other than Lewis and occasional outings for Irving the rest have never had a look in. Begs the question if they can’t feature in the midst of a really poor season then perhaps they are simply not good enough? I haven’t seen enough of them - others will be better placed to judge. All I can say is that McMahon started away to Montrose, played well, was one of our better players and never saw the light of day again??

You touch on something that's bothered me for some time now, that's to say why it is that over the last ten years or so at QOS every manager we've had has been so reluctant to blood players from our own youth system and yet sign players of a similar age from other clubs and they instantly become first team fixtures.

In the current squad we have the likes of Cochrane, Paton, Brydon, Connelly, Logan, McKechnie etc who all arrived at the club at around the age of 21 or under and each, when fit, have since signing become near automatic first picks.  Yet Muir and McMahon are roughly the same age as those named and struggle to make the bench, and even if they do are rarely given any game time.  Like you I wonder are they just not good enough?  Or is it a trust issue with our managers?  Do they just feel our own youth development system is, well, a bit shit, so it's much better to let another club develop the player before they are deemed good enough for Queens?

Owen Moxon has proved that we can produce quality players but then release them without giving them a chance.  Ian McShane, if I recall, was basically told he had no future at the club before McIntyre came in and re-signed him and he went on to play in the top flight.  And of course in the 2012/13 championship season Holt, Carmichael and Reilly all shone despite only having around half a season of prior first team experience between them.

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Slipmat

[FrankReynolds]

58 minutes ago, Slipmat said:

Do they just feel our own youth development system is, well, a bit shit, so it's much better to let another club develop the player before they are deemed good enough for Queens?

It’s this for me. The majority are sent to teams in the south of Scotland league which is a glorified amateur league. The standard of teams like lochmaben is very very poor and I’m sure we sent a couple there this season or last. Even if they do well (Jay Burns for example at Abbey Vale) they won’t be in the squad the following season in fact they’re more than likely to be released and it’s happened every season for years. 

[19QOS19]

1 hour ago, Slipmat said:

You touch on something that's bothered me for some time now, that's to say why it is that over the last ten years or so at QOS every manager we've had has been so reluctant to blood players from our own youth system and yet sign players of a similar age from other clubs and they instantly become first team fixtures.

In the current squad we have the likes of Cochrane, Paton, Brydon, Connelly, Logan, McKechnie etc who all arrived at the club at around the age of 21 or under and each, when fit, have since signing become near automatic first picks.  Yet Muir and McMahon are roughly the same age as those named and struggle to make the bench, and even if they do are rarely given any game time.  Like you I wonder are they just not good enough?  Or is it a trust issue with our managers?  Do they just feel our own youth development system is, well, a bit shit, so it's much better to let another club develop the player before they are deemed good enough for Queens?

Owen Moxon has proved that we can produce quality players but then release them without giving them a chance.  Ian McShane, if I recall, was basically told he had no future at the club before McIntyre came in and re-signed him and he went on to play in the top flight.  And of course in the 2012/13 championship season Holt, Carmichael and Reilly all shone despite only having around half a season of prior first team experience between them.

 

They aren't good enough is the short answer. Watched the current batch a few times now and still feel the same way, sadly. McMahon always looks busy but I'm not convinced there is much of an end product and at 22 this month I think if he hasn't been good enough to break through by now he should be looking elsewhere. I was genuinely gobsmacked Johnstone got the nod last year as he wasn't even the best midfielder in the youth team IMO. Jury is out for me on Burns; he can make some cracking runs but I think he needs to bulk up a fair bit. Muir I do like the look of and think he has something to offer. 

Gibson was head and shoulders above everyone else in that side and was always making the step up but other than Nathan (forgot his last name) I didn't think anyone could. The latter has chucked football completely now unfortunately. 

 

A sad reality is that we need these boys to be good enough by about 17/18 for first team football. If they aren't then they aren't going to hang around much longer if they're only getting £10 a week. 

 

31 minutes ago, FrankReynolds said:

It’s this for me. The majority are sent to teams in the south of Scotland league which is a glorified amateur league. The standard of teams like lochmaben is very very poor and I’m sure we sent a couple there this season or last. Even if they do well (Jay Burns for example at Abbey Vale) they won’t be in the squad the following season in fact they’re more than likely to be released and it’s happened every season for years. 

 

After watching them play Nithsdale a few weeks back I'd say they need to be getting loaned out to these divisions. Nithsdale were absolutely awful but completely intimidated our reserves. They looked almost scared on the park. I'm all for passing football but I don't think it would do young players harm to spend time in a 'hatchetmen league'.

Edited May 2, 2023 by 19QOS19

[Otis Blue]

I think its a case of, if the young lads are good enough then they will shine through - eg, Gibson, Holt, Carmichael, Reilly as has already been mentioned above.  However, it's a tough ask as the step up from the youth system is a big step.  Young Ross Irving was up against Benedictus at EEP the other week and it was a complete mis-match.  I'm not sure I saw much of Moxon when he was with us so can't really comment on him.  It's about having the right quality at the end of the day and I think that under Bartley a youngster will get a chance if he shows it in training etc.

[FrankReynolds]

2 hours ago, 19QOS19 said:

After watching them play Nithsdale a few weeks back I'd say they need to be getting loaned out to these divisions. Nithsdale were absolutely awful but completely intimidated our reserves. They looked almost scared on the park. I'm all for passing football but I don't think it would do young players harm to spend time in a 'hatchetmen league'.

Definitely. I agree with them having to toughen up, but in my opinion sending them to teams like Lochmaben is a waste of time. I’m sure they got 2 or 3 players on loan from us this season. Charlie Cowie was named in the WOSFL first division team of the year, I don’t think any boys on loan to south teams were named in theirs though. 

[Alex Nesovic's Barmy Army]

On 01/05/2023 at 16:17, Greenacres said:

 

I would try to keep... Murray...

 

This a banning offence?

20 hours ago, Greenacres said:

 Connor Sammon has always impressed me .

 

Good grief.

The first part would be bad enough but signing that utter jobber would tip me over the edge.

[Skyline Drifter]

38 minutes ago, FrankReynolds said:

Definitely. I agree with them having to toughen up, but in my opinion sending them to teams like Lochmaben is a waste of time. I’m sure they got 2 or 3 players on loan from us this season. Charlie Cowie was named in the WOSFL first division team of the year, I don’t think any boys on loan to south teams were named in theirs though. 

To be fair, the guys on loan to Lowland, West or East of Scotland (Charlie Cowie, Ben Johnstone, Peter Mendy, Keir Foster) are likely generally to be the better ones. There are exceptions. Jay Burns is on loan to Abbey Vale because he doesn't drive and getting him a non local loan didn't work if it wasn't where we already had someone else on loan. I don't see anywhere near enough South League football but genuinely surprised they found a better right back than Jay who has been outstanding when I have seen him play for an Abbey Vale team likely to win the league. He has only been there since January though which is maybe a factor in the team of the year voting. As is the fact he is barely 17 and probably needs to be stronger.

It's just one game but I was at the Lochar v Newton Stewart game last night and thought the best four players on the park were Robbie Hogg (ex QoS youth) and Finlay Kennedy, Andy Oram and Jamie Armstrong who are all on loan from Queens. Sadly Oram appeared to dislocate his shoulder in the last 5 minutes so presumably his season is over.

The only player on loan to Lochmaben currently is Owen Wiggett, who is with us on an amateur basis. He's not a first team prospect. I don't think they've had anyone else on loan this season. We have three on loan to Lochar (Kennedy who is still at school, Armstrong & Oram), three on loan to St Cuthberts (Konar Pietsch, Kane Paton & Cammy Shaw), one at Abbey Vale (Burns), Wiggett at Lochmaben and two at Mid Annandale (Charlie Watson & Sam Henderson, though the latter is more for convenience on his part. Sam's not part of our youth set up. He did us a short term favour to cover sub keeper before Xmas when we couldn't get Botterill registered and then went off to Mids for the rest of the season). Nathan Naylor was on loan to Lochar earlier in the season too but has apparently given up football since Xmas.

[Rjc-1988]

5 hours ago, 19QOS19 said:

They aren't good enough is the short answer. Watched the current batch a few times now and still feel the same way, sadly. McMahon always looks busy but I'm not convinced there is much of an end product and at 22 this month I think if he hasn't been good enough to break through by now he should be looking elsewhere. I was genuinely gobsmacked Johnstone got the nod last year as he wasn't even the best midfielder in the youth team IMO. Jury is out for me on Burns; he can make some cracking runs but I think he needs to bulk up a fair bit. Muir I do like the look of and think he has something to offer. 

Gibson was head and shoulders above everyone else in that side and was always making the step up but other than Nathan (forgot his last name) I didn't think anyone could. The latter has chucked football completely now unfortunately. 

 

A sad reality is that we need these boys to be good enough by about 17/18 for first team football. If they aren't then they aren't going to hang around much longer if they're only getting £10 a week. 

 

 

After watching them play Nithsdale a few weeks back I'd say they need to be getting loaned out to these divisions. Nithsdale were absolutely awful but completely intimidated our reserves. They looked almost scared on the park. I'm all for passing football but I don't think it would do young players harm to spend time in a 'hatchetmen league'.

As I said I don’t see enough of them to make a judgement. WG talked a few of them up and then never played them so a very confusing message. Muir played great away at Ayr at RB but was then played at RCB away at Hamilton in the Diddy Cup months later with little or no outings in between. It is abundantly clear that he doesn’t have the physique to play as a CB in a back 3 so not surprisingly he struggled that night although he is quite tidy on the ball.

As you rightly say if they are simply not good enough then no point in prolonging the agony. 

 

 

[Greenacres]

2 hours ago, Alex Nesovic's Barmy Army said:

This a banning offence?

Good grief.

The first part would be bad enough but signing that utter jobber would tip me over the edge.

Murray is a decent technical player but when the going gets tough he dissapears .

The problem is can we get better than Murray .

Sammon scores goals at this level has the experience we need and  would give us a physical presence up top but I suppose his age is against him once again can we get any better .

Massive summer for M.B. trying to get quality in we need. 

 

 

 

[Brother Grimm]

2 hours ago, Greenacres said:

Murray is a decent technical player but when the going gets tough he dissapears .

The problem is can we get better than Murray .

Sammon scores goals at this level has the experience we need and  would give us a physical presence up top but I suppose his age is against him once again can we get any better .

Massive summer for M.B. trying to get quality in we need. 

 

 

 

Is 18 in 70 games a good record for Alloa? Not sure the accuracy but if true it's pretty dire.

[Alex Nesovic's Barmy Army]

5 hours ago, Brother Grimm said:

Is 18 in 70 games a good record for Alloa? Not sure the accuracy but if true it's pretty dire.

24 goals in 85 games according to transfer market. The sort of record you'd expect for a striker who is garbage.

He's also 36.

[Monkey Tennis]

Whilst not wishing to make any sort of case for recruiting Sammon, I can't help comparing  his goal scoring rate with that of an other big physical presence we had up front relatively recently. 

The Alloa guy's stats don't look too bad when you do that.

[HighlandQueen]

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Whilst not wishing to make any sort of case for recruiting Sammon, I can't help comparing  his goal scoring rate with that of an other big physical presence we had up front relatively recently. 

The Alloa guy's stats don't look too bad when you do that.

I agree we need better physical presence, particularly in the spine of the team but Marv quite rightly said he would not sign journeymen that have been around 5 or 6 clubs. Using his English scouts, his scouting up here and good loans from contacts to get younger, fitter, bigger and better players must be the way forward. This excites me and may give us players to sell on. Tolerating another season with the bulk of these players who have let us down over the last two seasons is not an option and the WG pile in a load of Scottish only no hopers has been a disaster. Up to MB to deliver on getting us a team that can challenge to win this league

[19QOS19]

2 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Whilst not wishing to make any sort of case for recruiting Sammon, I can't help comparing  his goal scoring rate with that of an other big physical presence we had up front relatively recently. 

The Alloa guy's stats don't look too bad when you do that.

Think Dykes's stats looks far better in seriousness. He's already scored more in the Championship than Sammon managed. His goalscoring for us wasn't great but he has about 30 more assists than Sammon. I think Dykes was unfortunate in that Dobbie was the focal point for us and his job was more about assisting him; which he did brilliantly. 

I'd have Dykes over prime Sammon every day of the week tbh. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by 19QOS19

[Swarley]

A Dykes v Sammon debate? 

[Otis Blue]

Dykes was the perfect foil for Dobbie - a match made in heaven.  If only the rest of that team had been half as good.

Goals were never the be all and end all of Dykes game, from day 1 he was a handful for defenders, hence the assists for others.

[Skyline Drifter]

Wait, @Monkey Tennis wasnt seriously referring to Dykes was he? Surely not. I genuinely assumed he was referring to Innes Cameron. 

Doubling down on how incredibly wrong he was about Dykes by comparing him unfavourably to Connor Sammon would be incredible banter.

[football maniac]

On 25/04/2023 at 09:25, Skyline Drifter said:

Moxey voted into the English League Two Team of the Season at the weekend I see. Outstanding player and as I've always said, Gary Naysmith's biggest mistake in charge was to let him leave on a free. He'll most likely be in the English Championship next season.

Based on current ability rather than at their best (otherwise I might for instance have Jamie MacDonald above Clark):

Zander Clark

Max Johnston
Ayo Obileye
Jason Kerr
Kevin Holt

Dom Thomas
Owen Moxon
Joe Thomson
Izzy Jones

Nicky Clark
Lyndon Dykes

Subs:
Robby McCrorie
Jordan Marshall
Barry Maguire
Daragh O'Connor
Wullie Gibson
Adam Frizzell
Greg Kiltie
Connor Shields
Chris Kane

Real dearth of midfielders actually. Loads of goalkeepers (I've not included MacDonald, Josh Rae, Kevin Dabrowski who were all very good before you even talk about ones who weren't that great). An handful of wingers, some strikers but almost no central midfielders.

 

Edit - And Queen's Park have Lee Kilday and Dom Thomas (and currently Shields on loan). I'd have two of those back in a heartbeat, and wouldn't be unhappy to get all three. Who didn't you rate? Have I missed someone else playing there?

Would you not have Shaun Rooney in the squad? For us he was inconsistent but since leaving he has done well at St Johnstone and in League One with Fleetwood Town

[Skyline Drifter]

8 minutes ago, football maniac said:

Would you not have Shaun Rooney in the squad? For us he was inconsistent but since leaving he has done well at St Johnstone and in League One with Fleetwood Town

In the squad? On current form? Yeah thats probably fair. I overlooked him maybe because 'inconsistent' is being kind to him. I thought he was awful for us. Wullie's not getting any younger though so sub instead of him maybe. I'd take Max Johnston over him all day, every day though.

[Monkey Tennis]

4 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Wait, @Monkey Tennis wasnt seriously referring to Dykes was he? Surely not. I genuinely assumed he was referring to Innes Cameron. 

Doubling down on how incredibly wrong he was about Dykes by comparing him unfavourably to Connor Sammon would be incredible banter.

When people were saying how useless Sammon is because he doesn't score many, the comparison with the forward about whom there is the most brazen ever revisionism in evidence, seemed inescapable.

That's all.

 

I'm not really drawing that direct a comparison - I'm not actually deranged. 

It's just that apparently we're not allowed to consider Dykes' goalscoring record as a factor when considering his worth, yet it's considered defining where other forwards are concerned.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, I've no desire to see Sammon here.