The Queen of the South thread

[QOS5Ayr4]

4 hours ago, Nithsdale Wanderer said:

A tale of two interviews.

As referenced above, Bartley is frustrated at the mistakes being made time after time especially after he has been so thorough in his preparation. If only Football Management was so simple as telling players what to do and they do it every time !

The penny doesn't seem to drop with him that if he keeps doing the same and the players keep doing the same and it isn't working then he is making mistakes as well - not just them.  As a Manager, in any field, you have to get to know your team members and how to motivate each one. Every individual is different and will learn in their own way. It is his job to find that out for each one and deliver accordingly.  

It sounds like he is taking a ' one size fits all ' approach ' which is easy and frankly, lazy.  I could well be wrong as I don't know what is happening on the inside as I am not there.  I mention that as Bartley seems to me had a bit of a go in a  very sneering, arrogant way during the Dundee Utd interview when Sandra mentioned some fans thought he had lost the  dressing room. He responded along the lines of they don't see what happens on the inside , I do,  inferring that they should all shut up as they don't know what they are talking about.

To the second interview from Jim McIntyre at Arbroath.

Arbroath are struggling too and he talked about a lot of similar things - preparation, game plans, instructions.

He recognises players will make mistakes - Bartley can't seem to grasp that -  " players are not robots ...  but when they do make mistakes it is the   Managers job to HELP them".  He also said " things happen during games and players need to think for themselves sometimes ". Heaven help any of our players that might do that !

Going back to understanding instructions McIntyre also said that a player might not play well but he shouldn't come off the pitch saying he didn't understand what he was being asked to do.

From these two interviews it is clear what the overall framework is for preparing and coaching a team to perform, but the key thing is the Managers approach to that and how best to deliver their message to each player in order to achieve maximum performance.

Bartley and McIntyre want to achieve the same things but they are very different characters. I have always enjoyed listening to McIntyre , comes across as a very positive guy though I am sure he can ' give it out ' when required.  Even when winning - rare I know - Bartley rarely cracks a smile and it is business as usual. You need that positivity around the training ground to carry into games not a culture of fear of making a mistake.

Listening to McIntyres interview just reinforced to me that he would have been able to lift the whole place. 

He spoke very fondly of his time at Palmerston too.

To sum up, Bartley seems incapable of changing therefore we need to make the change asap.

 

 

Nicely put. Public ridiculing of individual players, or even groups of players, is a sign of poor, and in this case inexperienced and naive, management.

Such a shame, as I was happy when he was appointed and for the first few games last season. However, there's not even a glimmer of light now, and for the first time since the mid-1970s I've stopped going to games when I'm free.  I'm actually embarrassed for the Club at the moment. I'll be back when he's gone, but not before.

[Rjc-1988]

13 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

I still think "great capture" is a bit much. I was very happy with his appointment but I've never went as far as to say he was a great capture: that to me suggests we're very lucky to have got his services. 

It's taken me longer to give up on MB (probably been more patient with him purely because he's a rookie) than others but I'm certainly at that stage now. 

No problem - I thought originally he was an innovative appointment as well and like everybody else was willing him to do well. The mistake was not the appointment but the length of contract in my view.

It is maybe just me but I have an immediate aversion to new rookie Managers who breeze in and give the impression that they have found some new way of playing and have all the answers. A bit more humility and realism would have bought him more time with me. Cathro at Hearts springs to mind.

I hope he can recover from this and recover his career but he has to go.

[Bluenortherner]

4 hours ago, Rjc-1988 said:

I haven’t been to any games recently but when I was going every week Ambrose was our best defender by far. He must have deteriorated out of all recognition if he is now the prize “fall guy”. He admittedly gave the ball away at Alloa (when I was last there) but apart from that he was our MOM by a country mile.

I have decided I won't be back until Bartley has gone, the whole place stinks of everything bad.

Incidentally, I really can't believe that you have stopped going, that's like Ross or Jim giving up too!! 

[Rjc-1988]

10 minutes ago, Bluenortherner said:

I have decided I won't be back until Bartley has gone, the whole place stinks of everything bad.

Incidentally, I really can't believe that you have stopped going, that's like Ross or Jim giving up too!! 

To be fair I haven’t stopped going - have been out of the country for a few weeks.  Like everybody else I am desperately disappointed with events under Bartley. I can stomach defeats if we look as though we are attacking, creating chances and just not getting “rub of green” but none of that applies to us I’m afraid.

One of my best pals is a long-standing Berwick supporter - it has been soul destroying for him to come to terms with what has happened to them. I am genuinely concerned that we could follow a similar path if we are not very careful.

Once crowds fall to the 500 mark it is a very long way back.

 

[19QOS19]

2 hours ago, Rjc-1988 said:

No problem - I thought originally he was an innovative appointment as well and like everybody else was willing him to do well. The mistake was not the appointment but the length of contract in my view.*

It is maybe just me but I have an immediate aversion to new rookie Managers who breeze in and give the impression that they have found some new way of playing and have all the answers. A bit more humility and realism would have bought him more time with me. Cathro at Hearts springs to mind.**

I hope he can recover from this and recover his career but he has to go.***

*The length of contract seems to be something we never seem to get right. I think Paton has been the only successful 2 year deal we've got spot on. It's one of those with Bartley that had he done really well with us this year he'd absolutely have been hoovered up in May (if not sooner) and we'd be moaning we only gave him a year. The other side is the situation we find ourselves in now, unfortunately. 

** Fair. I have to admit I did like his confidence and he had a few of us believing he was the man for the job. Obviously the practical hasn't matched the theory, sadly. 

*** I can't see him recovering it for us but I think he'll still get another gig at some point in the future. He's still young enough and this will have been a massive learning curve for him. I think being less stubborn is what he will need to work on. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Rjc-1988 said:

Once crowds fall to the 500 mark it is a very long way back.

 

Genuinely think we'll see this at Palmerston this season if Bartley isn't sacked. Especially if/when Edinburgh beat us. 

[Kelheart]

Bartley signed Doherty that should be a sacking offence alone 

[Otis Blue]

30 minutes ago, Kelheart said:

Bartley signed Doherty that should be a sacking offence alone 

Not only the signing but we gave him a 2 year contract FFS ... raised plenty eyebrows at the time.

[Rjc-1988]

7 minutes ago, Otis Blue said:

Not only the signing but we gave him a 2 year contract FFS ... raised plenty eyebrows at the time.

Sadly you can add Hutchinson to the Doherty debacle. Every Manager will take a punt on certain players and get them wrong but two year deals for these players given our financial constraints = serious errors of judgement. I get that Hutchinson may not want to relocate for a one year deal but if that is the case look elsewhere.Doherty probably couldn’t believe his luck.

[Terry_Tibbs]

Are the board seriously waiting until we're bottom of the table in January to make a change? Just to save a few grand in compensation?

I take it the Dykes windfall is well and truly squandered?

 

[Kelheart]

31 minutes ago, Otis Blue said:

Not only the signing but we gave him a 2 year contract FFS ... raised plenty eyebrows at the time.

When he was at us I genuinely thought I could do a better job than what he offered and I'm 53 , he obviously knows the right people to even have a sniff at a game of football , wouldn't have him in my 7s team 

[Slipmat]

We've had plenty of time to assess Bartley's summer transfer business now.  I'd rate the signings as follows:

Good:     Mimnaugh  /  Stone

Meh:      Houston  /  Church*  /  Walker*

Bad:      Ambrose **  /  Doherty  /  Hutchinson  /  McGuffie  /  Ferguson  /  MacIntyre

Awful:      Logan  /  Raggett***  /  McClelland

* have shown up well in flashes, but could easily be dropped into the "bad" category given how few and far between these flashes have been

** started off well (well, better than McKay) but has become more and more of a liability as the season progresses

*** never seen him play, but if he's only rated good enough to have appeared on the bench once or twice and never on the pitch he must be honking

14 signings and 9 I'd rate as being bad or worse.  Dare we go into the next window with Bartley still in charge?

Edited December 5, 2023 by Slipmat
because I can't count

[Baghdad_QoS]

This is a funny one for me in line with the players.  I don't disagree that we have signed some stinkers.... however I genuinely believe we have enough ability to actually do well enough in the league IF the psychological side is sorted out.  MB i'm afraid cannot spell man management if it came and spanked him in the arse and that is what the issue is.

Train Train Train... Fails to execute  Train Train Train... Fails to execute.... Train Train Train... Fails again to execute - To any man and his dog, that screams out that either the players have no faith at all in what he wants to achieve... or that they genuinely don't understand what he wants them to achieve.  This is then followed by a public flogging of the players and those players then slip further into the 'WTF' category and their ability subsequently falls further down the line.

Before Efe's public flogging he was decent enough, he was MoM probably more than any other player albeit not a stand out.  When you take the confidence out of the player, then simple tasks, knowing the end game is a possible public flogging... ends up in a complete shambles performance wise and this is where we are at.  Take the lowest common demoninator out of the equation and we have a chance to turn it around. 

We don't need the most tactically aligned manager at this stage, but we need a people person that had the ability to get players on the pitch  believing that they can beat anyone..... He'd never come back but as a Man Manager, Naysmith for me is that type of manager that can unit a dressing room.

 

[Monkey Tennis]

24 minutes ago, Baghdad_QoS said:

He'd never come back but as a Man Manager, Naysmith for me is that type of manager that can unit a dressing room.

I was broadly with you until the last bit, quoted above.

Last time, despite getting to field the best player in the division, Naysmith United his dressing room in a nose dive right into the relegation play-offs.

[bod]

Could someone ITK please make sure Bartley reads this from the type of manager we desperately need.

Ross County manager Derek Adams gives his players "simple messages each day" and tries not to "complicate" things as he reflects on their recent upturn in results,

[Otis Blue]

47 minutes ago, bod said:

Could someone ITK please make sure Bartley reads this from the type of manager we desperately need.

Ross County manager Derek Adams gives his players "simple messages each day" and tries not to "complicate" things as he reflects on their recent upturn in results,

What does Stuart Kettlewell tell his players? ... He'll be available soon ...

[Fae_the_'briggs]

33 minutes ago, Otis Blue said:

What does Stuart Kettlewell tell his players? ... He'll be available soon ...

If appointed he'd probably say"Shite players  got me sacked at my last two clubs, you lot better not make it a hattrick".

 

4 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I was broadly with you until the last bit, quoted above.

Last time, despite getting to field the best player in the division, Naysmith United his dressing room in a nose dive right into the relegation play-offs.

Naysmith basically downed tools in the January when he held out on accepting a new deal which was subsequently withdrawn. (allegedly). We went from an attack minded team near the top to a team set up trying not to lose games, and we inevitably did lose games. 

[queenslad]

5 hours ago, Baghdad_QoS said:

This is a funny one for me in line with the players.  I don't disagree that we have signed some stinkers.... however I genuinely believe we have enough ability to actually do well enough in the league IF the psychological side is sorted out.  MB i'm afraid cannot spell man management if it came and spanked him in the arse and that is what the issue is.

Train Train Train... Fails to execute  Train Train Train... Fails to execute.... Train Train Train... Fails again to execute -

 

What is the plan? We as fans don't know. It ay be to keep possession even if that means going backwards or square as if opposition don't have the ball then they won't score. Lets say it is and you have to play that way for 98mins, if one player makes a mistake then a goal happens. How many times are they executing the the plan. Players at our level are not good enough to play at 100% all the time (effort yes) but not skilful/technically enough.

One mistake is highlighted when a goal is scored, how many other mistakes are made that don't result in goals? Many and frequently

[Slipmat]

42 minutes ago, queenslad said:

What is the plan? We as fans don't know. It ay be to keep possession even if that means going backwards or square as if opposition don't have the ball then they won't score. Lets say it is and you have to play that way for 98mins, if one player makes a mistake then a goal happens. How many times are they executing the the plan. Players at our level are not good enough to play at 100% all the time (effort yes) but not skilful/technically enough.

One mistake is highlighted when a goal is scored, how many other mistakes are made that don't result in goals? Many and frequently

Thing is, we're not scoring goals at the other end either.  Which can mean one of two things:  either we are playing a system which restricts the number of chances we can create, which in turn adds pressure on the forwards to turn a ridiculously high percentage of chances into goals - something that even Paton couldn't do last season given the number of chances he spurned;  or the nine other clubs have defenders who just don't make mistakes, in which case you have to ask why are their defenders not playing at a higher level?

[DoonhamerDon]

Remarkable that Bartley seems to have survived (for another week at least) such a run.

4pts from 33 in the league. 

Just checked our other recent sackings and all were on "not as bad" a run. Johnston, Naysmith, Fowler and MacPherson all had at least 8 points from their last 11 games. Gibson had 15 (and 18 from 12)

Not suggesting those sackings were wrong at all but just staggered that BoD can allow this to continue.

What is keeping him in post? It has to be cost/lack of alternative? 

 

[Otis Blue]

33 minutes ago, DoonhamerDon said:

Remarkable that Bartley seems to have survived (for another week at least) such a run.

......

What is keeping him in post? It has to be cost/lack of alternative? 

I think you/we all know the answer to your question (and it's not the latter).

Zip will happen before Saturday, and I think zip will happen before the New Year - I just hope that by then it's not too late to steady the ship and avoid L2.