The Death Penalty

[Boo Khaki]

1 hour ago, sophia said:

Andrew Malkinson is free at last.

There seems to have been a lot that went wrong in his case.

Yeah, that particular case goes way beyond mistaken identity, or the Police genuinely, but mistakenly believing they had the right guy.

Blatantly nefarious behaviours on the part of plod.

Edited July 26, 2023 by Boo Khaki

[TxRover]

4 hours ago, dirty dingus said:

I watch a lot of these police interrogations from the states on youtube, it's weird how they seem to be so forthright and open with the guys doing the interviews. Maybe it's only showing the idiots that think they can outsmart the police because on the Ch4  24hr in police custody every suspect just says "no comment." I was told they are more willing to take on the accusations because remand can take as long as 5 years waiting on the case to get processed in the US. Anyone know if this is true?

 

Cases aren’t especially fast in the U.S., despite the right to a speedy trial, but cash bail is the real problem. If you’re poor, it’s difficult to get out of jail on bond, so you lose your job, lose your house, etc. If the judge sets a $10,000 bond (a common amount), you have to either pay $10,000 cash or get a bail bond for $10,000 by paying a bondsman 10% ($1,000). When you show up for trial, you can get your $10,000 back, but if you paid a bondsman, that money is not refunded.

Most commonly, bonds are set at X Cash or 10X Property, so you can pledge $10,000 cash or some property you own worth $100,000+. If you hire a bondsman to get you out, you have to comply with their requirements (often weekly check-ins by phone, advice of address changes, etc.) or they can revoke the bond and pick you up and return you to jail (and again, you don’t get your money back as long as they can prove you violated the terms you agreed to).

While on bond/bail, you are limited in where you can travel, usually a county or several county area unless the court agrees. The court can also require you to turn over your passports, limit your use of computers/internet and/or wear a tracking bracelet/anklet.

[hk blues]

16 hours ago, Brother Blades said:

Correct, penalty isn’t a deterrent at all...

I've read similar but with the caveat that it's true only where the likelihood of getting caught is slim.  

[Nowhereman]

13 hours ago, Boo Khaki said:

Yeah, that particular case goes way beyond mistaken identity, or the Police genuinely, but mistakenly believing they had the right guy.

Blatantly nefarious behaviours on the part of plod.

Yip. Anyone who wants the death penalty should consider a case like this

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jul/26/appeal-court-overturns-manchester-rape-conviction-of-man-who-spent-17-years-in-jail-andrew-malkinson

If such an appalling miscarriage of justice can occur in a rape case it could occur in a murder case. Bad enough to be jailed for 17 years for something you didn't do  but the death penalty takes that way beyond a miscarriage.

[hk blues]

12 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

Yip. Anyone who wants the death penalty should consider a case like this

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jul/26/appeal-court-overturns-manchester-rape-conviction-of-man-who-spent-17-years-in-jail-andrew-malkinson

If such an appalling miscarriage of justice can occur in a rape case it could occur in a murder case. Bad enough to be jailed for 17 years for something you didn't do  but the death penalty takes that way beyond a miscarriage.

There will be those who view such cases as collateral damage.  

[stimpy]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7052109.stm

 

The case of Stefan Kiszko was sad enough without the death penalty and he definitely would've been condemned to death. 

[Venti]

 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

22 hours ago, dirty dingus said:

I watch a lot of these police interrogations from the states on youtube, it's weird how they seem to be so forthright and open with the guys doing the interviews. Maybe it's only showing the idiots that think they can outsmart the police because on the Ch4  24hr in police custody every suspect just says "no comment." I was told they are more willing to take on the accusations because remand can take as long as 5 years waiting on the case to get processed in the US. Anyone know if this is true?

 

Ive always found the ‘tell us you did it and it’ll go easier’ stuff from America to be really poor. All i can say is that its not all about getting a detection, its getting the right detection. The whole ‘no comment stuff’ i understand lawyers doing that, but a good example I’ve got is one where had the guy no commented the interview there was probably enough to charge him, he looked really scared, i asked him if he was alright and he started talking about the crime, turns out he’d been wrongly accused by two witnesses and had an alibi, was able to sort out the alibi’s veracity and let the guy go with no charges (for him anyway). 
As for the death penalty, im absolutely against it, I do think that some people are beyond rehabilitation. I also think there should be alternatives to prison involving people doing meaningful work training and showing they can hold down a job, joining the army should be a considered alternative to prison, people get a trade, get a routine, positive role models they’ve probably lacked etc. 

[GordonD]

16 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

joining the army should be a considered alternative to prison,

This is suggested quite often but the Army doesn't want people like that.

[welshbairn]

7 minutes ago, GordonD said:

This is suggested quite often but the Army doesn't want people like that.

The Russian one does.

[dirty dingus]

1 minute ago, welshbairn said:

The Russian one does.

They're looking more for rapey cannon fodder than soldiers.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

17 minutes ago, GordonD said:

This is suggested quite often but the Army doesn't want people like that.

Some kind of public works corps or something then. But with real meaningful skills and training. 

[pandarilla]

Am I right in saying that the death penalty is one of those cases where public opinion is just wrong, and therefore should be ignored?

I think if we had a referendum in Britain I reckon it would pass - but there never will be one.  As plenty of others have pointed out already, it's just wrong.  It's a natural and understandable policy but it's just wrong.   

[welshbairn]

12 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

Am I right in saying that the death penalty is one of those cases where public opinion is just wrong, and therefore should be ignored?

I think if we had a referendum in Britain I reckon it would pass - but there never will be one.  As plenty of others have pointed out already, it's just wrong.  It's a natural and understandable policy but it's just wrong.   

Haven't done a big google but I think on the occasions there has been a proper public debate on the issue the polls switch to being against the death penalty.

[Shotgun]

In recent years, we've seen countless examples of police brutality and racism (thanks to phone cameras) and exposes of institutional corruption. Do we think this has just started in the last 20 years or so? Of course not, the police have always been criminals and their intent has always been to close as many cases as possible without worrying about technicalities like whether they're charging the wrong person. Evidence is 'found' or 'lost' as needed and confessions are frequently involuntarily.

The legal system isn't any better. There's truth to the maxim "One law for them, another for us." Why else would rich people pay extra for better legal representation? Because they know they'll get a better deal obviously and if you're poor, the chances of a heavier punishment are a certainty. By what logic does justice depend on how much money the accused has?

Does anybody really believe Donald Trump will see prison time despite everything he's done? Yet if he'd had his way, 5 innocent men would have received the death penalty based on little more than his wealth, public profile and stupidity. Which is just one example of how when you add race into the mix and it's inevitable that poor, black men will be at the shitty end of the stick as usual.

Show me a death penalty advocate and I'll show you a "pro-lifer".

[Shandon Par]

The only time I’m in favour of the death penalty is for littering.. Anyone chucking McDonalds wrappers etc out of their car or leaving their barbecues on beaches etc. Or leaving “missing cat/dog” posters up. Or putting Christmas decorations up too early. Remove this lot from the gene pool and crime would die out in no time.

[welshbairn]

My thoughts are in response to death penalty advocates about what you would do if you caught somebody who's just killed your wife or child. Of course I would kill them by any means necessary, with as much suffering as possible, in no fear of the consequences. But what generally happens is that state functionaries tick a box on a sheet of paper that consigns someone to execution years after the event, guilty or not. Murder by clerks be they legally qualified or political grifters is inexcusable when life in prison is the alternative.

Edited July 27, 2023 by welshbairn

[tongue_tied_danny]

40 minutes ago, Shandon Par said:

The only time I’m in favour of the death penalty is for littering.. Anyone chucking McDonalds wrappers etc out of their car or leaving their barbecues on beaches etc. Or leaving “missing cat/dog” posters up. Or putting Christmas decorations up too early. Remove this lot from the gene pool and crime would die out in no time.

I agree. 

I'd also bring back hanging for people who say "mac and cheese".

[Newbornbairn]

13 minutes ago, tongue_tied_danny said:

I agree. 

I'd also bring back hanging for people who say "mac and cheese".

Edited July 27, 2023 by Newbornbairn

[Hauzen]

Sorry about the 17 years you shouldn't have spent in our prison but you now need to pay us for the privilege 

Innocent man wrongly jailed for 17 years 'could have to pay prison thousands for board and lodgings'