Getting rid of VAR in Scottish football

[EastFife_Hibee]

Why can't we keep goal line technology and the semi automated offsides that they used in the world cup and put the rest of var in the bin??

Also if they let each linesman run the full length of the pitch then that would surely help with decisions, as 6 eyes are better than 4 Shirley??

[scottsdad]

In every big organisation I have worked in, the powers that be have invested in and launched initiatives that have proven to be shite. I some cases they spend huge sums on *something* that was supposed to make things better but never properly worked. 

I each case they refused to simply ditch it and go back to the old system that worked. I don't know if it was pride, some mental refusal to accept the money was wasted. 

I reckon that's where we are with VAR. 

[Bairnardo]

5 hours ago, scottsdad said:

In every big organisation I have worked in, the powers that be have invested in and launched initiatives that have proven to be shite. I some cases they spend huge sums on *something* that was supposed to make things better but never properly worked. 

I each case they refused to simply ditch it and go back to the old system that worked. I don't know if it was pride, some mental refusal to accept the money was wasted. 

I reckon that's where we are with VAR. 

Sunken cost fallacy

[Willie adie]

Having seen the disallowed goal, then yes it was correctly adjudged offside.

It's how it got there is the problem.

Players and coaches need to change how they play, the years of standing either just off or marginally on, that has been a tactic of attackers, deliberately dicing with a favourable decision or not, are now with VAR not going to work as it did, 

Attackers maybe got 40% if those decisions go for them before VAR now they will get almost zero.

The game needs to change to suit the rules,

Oh and while I'm here, ball.

Very simple, if it hits you on the hand it's handball deliberatell or not simple no , interpretation needed, not accidental, or deliberate or un natural body position and all that ,

Any handball free kick to opposition.

Clear, concise, easily understood 

[DA Baracus]

7 hours ago, EastFife_Hibee said:

Why can't we keep goal line technology and the semi automated offsides that they used in the world cup and put the rest of var in the bin??

Also if they let each linesman run the full length of the pitch then that would surely help with decisions, as 6 eyes are better than 4 Shirley??

We don't have goal line technology in Scotland. I'd be in favour of it though. It's an instant yes/no and not open to debate, unlike VAR.

[hk blues]

7 hours ago, EastFife_Hibee said:

Why can't we keep goal line technology and the semi automated offsides that they used in the world cup and put the rest of var in the bin??

Also if they let each linesman run the full length of the pitch then that would surely help with decisions, as 6 eyes are better than 4 Shirley??

Goal-line technology is for a different purpose than VAR though, as was the offside technology you mentioned.  Binning VAR and keeping those wouldn't satisfy the powers-that-be who want to sanitise the game and remove the human element, including most tackling.

[TheScarf]

1 hour ago, Bairnardo said:

Sunken cost fallacy

Was going to say the same. Ive also worked in places that have done exactly the same - 

Consultation stage - My colleagues and: I 'Yeah, that won't make our jobs more efficient or easier and will probably make us take longer.'

Testing stage - My colleagues and I: 'Yeah, this isn't making our jobs more efficient or easier and it's taking us longer'. 

Implementation and BAU stage - My colleagues and I: 'Like we already warned you, this isn't making our jobs more efficient or easier and it's taking us longer. We need to go back to the old system'. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by TheScarf

[Zamora Fan]

The introduction of VAR without any consultation of fans by most clubs is just completely depressing to me.
 

I’ve not lived close enough to go to more than a handful of Saints games a season for years, but up until this last year and a bit I still felt completely connected to the club and enjoyed watching games from afar. That connection has been gradually fading - it’s not all down to VAR but the way you now feel like every goal that’s been scored might just get disallowed and a phase of exciting play all be for nothing wrecks the drama, which is what you live for in Scottish football. I feel almost ashamed that as a collective we let this happen to our game, which could — I know I’m naive — have even marketed itself to football purists as an escape from the VAR nightmare of the top leagues. Instead we have an even more invasive version of the nightmare!

Nothing is impossible, I’m sure lots of people in 2012 thought there was no way fans could make their voices heard on the Rangers stuff when money was such a big factor. This time round, if clubs listened to an overwhelming anger they would actually save money by scrapping VAR.

The key thing to really kick start any kind of campaign to scrap it would be to demonstrate that anger is actually there. If clubs won’t do consultations of season ticket holders, maybe fan groups could? Maybe the Alan Burrows and Grant Russells of the SPFL who 100% read this forum could make the case for surveying fans about the tech? And if not possible, perhaps money could be raised to commission an opinion poll of match-going football fans to work out where opinion actually is. 
 

It is only here to stay if we let it stay.

[DoingThe42]

There are numerous issues with VAR, and going into individual decisions is pointless, as the overall point is about the nature of the game.

Football just isn't suited to it. It's fast paced, it's a contact sport full of collisions, and the rules are subjective. What's excessive force to you? Probably different to someone else.

Furthermore, it ruins the fan experience at the ground. Only the most stubborn VAR advocate could stand about at a stadium for a few minutes waiting for a decision and still think "this is fine". Who could possibly enjoy it? Scottish football is overwhelmingly about the paying fan. We have limited tv income and our clubs rely on the paying fan. They should be the priority, but we were never asked. We were never asked because they didn't want to hear the answer.

Most decisions were already correct. People can disagree about what's a significant improvement, but decisions were overwhelmingly correct pre-VAR.

It's a waste of resources. Those of us who watch lower league fitba in the SPFL will see that the standard of refs, while never amazing at that level, has obviously been affected by the number of officials tied up on VAR duties further up the chain. There are now vastly over-promoted refs doing SPFL games as a result. Anyone else at Clyde v Dumbarton last Saturday? Fucking hell. You see some awful officials at that level now.

The final point is that, unchecked, VAR will only get bigger. Burnley v Chelsea last week had play stopped after it had re-started to check a goal. We were told that wouldn't happen, but football and its rules are reactive. One big controversy is all it has taken to make VAR's reach bigger, and that's going to keep happening. Eventually everything will be on the table for VAR. You can lose a game because of anything that happens on a park, and it'll just grow with each passing controversy.

If you're bothered about it, contact your club. Email them, send them a letter, contact your club's SLO, write a letter to the paper, text Sportsound, do whatever you feel like. But the only way this changes is if the public conversation moves away from the idea that VAR is a finished debate and we have to have it now. We don't have to have it, but people need to actually give it tight to their clubs for anything to change. Part of that is whingeing about it in the media and making them talk about it.

Talk of boycotts etc is too early, imo, but, if clubs refuse to engage with fans who question them about VAR, then it becomes something that's on the table.

I hate VAR. I hate that this was all so predictable. It could never have gone any other way.

 

[Zamora Fan]

On 13/10/2023 at 09:56, 10menwent2mow said:

I had this discussion with my mate at the Dons v Saints game last Sunday where Consi's og was ruled out by VAR after a lengthy delay. 

My point was that since the introduction of VAR, have we seen a decrease in the number of goals scored from open play in the league? I'd hazard a guess that we see more penalties given although that may be anecdotal. VAR simply seems to exist to chop off goals for very minor reasons and I can't think of many examples where a goal has been chalked off by the on-field officials but given on a VAR review. 

When it was being discussed I made this point after a turgid game, against St Johnstone funnily enough, when the one genuine moment of quality came late in the game as Teddy Jenks spanked one in from the edge of the box. The ball had accidently hit his hand before it dropped to his right foot and I said at the time that under VAR it would have been ruled out. It wasn't deliberate but it definitely hit his hand. Now, fans had sat through an utterly dreadful 80-odd minutes and this was a cracking strike from the edge of the box. Cue normal large travelling support bedlam a la Tartan Army last night. We are taking that away from football and it's utterly soul destroying for the game going fan. 

TLDR Get it in the fucking bin

That Jenks goal against us is a good example. I’m fine with feeling aggrieved at the end of games like that and moaning in the pub about the handball, as it means the reverse - when we nick a dodgy goal at Pittrodie and get to go wild without Buzz Killington getting involved - stands too. 

Example that makes me shiver is that our equaliser against you in the Ibrox semi-final in 2014 would have been subject to a very lengthy check for a high boot from James Dunne. Could have went either way, I reckon they’d panic and disallow it. One of the best moments in our history and one of the biggest bounces I’ve ever experienced would have been basically ruined if it happened this year instead of in 2014. Is that what football is about?

 

 

[Donathan]

If VAR is ever repealed, I don’t want to see any of you ever complaining about a refereeing decision again. 

[vikingTON]

5 minutes ago, Donathan said:

If VAR is ever repealed, I don’t want to see any of you ever complaining about a refereeing decision again. 

Lol wut

VAR is responsible for as many disgraceful refereeing decisions as referees lacking that function. Such as the absolute nonsense penalty Celtic conveniently got to open the scoring against us in the Scottish Cup last season. 

[TheScarf]

6 minutes ago, Zamora Fan said:

That Jenks goal against us is a good example. I’m fine with feeling aggrieved at the end of games like that and moaning in the pub about the handball, as it means the reverse - when we nick a dodgy goal at Pittrodie and get to go wild without Buzz Killington getting involved - stands too. 

Example that makes me shiver is that our equaliser against you in the Ibrox semi-final in 2014 would have been subject to a very lengthy check for a high boot from James Dunne. Could have went either way, I reckon they’d panic and disallow it. One of the best moments in our history and one of the biggest bounces I’ve ever experienced would have been basically ruined if it happened this year instead of in 2014. Is that what football is about?

 

 

Likewise, with VAR we probably would never have gotten this moment - 

[Donathan]

Just now, virginton said:

Lol wut

VAR is responsible for as many disgraceful refereeing decisions as referees lacking that function. Such as the absolute nonsense penalty Celtic conveniently got to open the scoring against us in the Scottish Cup last season. 

Erm, no. I’ve not seen the incident in question so I’d invite you to provide a link, but in the vast majority of cases I’m going to trust the opinion of multiple officials with the benefit of being able to see several angles of the incident repeatedly, over that of one referee to the naked eye in real team.

 

I can understand the entertainment argument (although for me, competitive fairness is more important than entertaining the fans), but you cannot rationally argue that VAR has made the actual decision making worse. 

[DoingThe42]

Just now, Donathan said:

If VAR is ever repealed, I don’t want to see any of you ever complaining about a refereeing decision again. 

You can complain about a decision or criticise a referee without wanting to completely change how the game is officiated.

 

[Donathan]

2 minutes ago, DoingThe42 said:

You can complain about a decision or criticise a referee without wanting to completely change how the game is officiated.

 

No you can’t.

 

You’re being offered technology to undo these poor decisions. And you’re turning your nose up at it. 

[DoingThe42]

Just now, Donathan said:

No you can’t.

 

You’re being offered technology to undo these poor decisions. And you’re turning your nose up at it. 

Assuming you're at the wind-up, but it's not logical to say "You have rejected a bad solution to a problem so you can never moan about the problem again."

[Dons_1988]

6 minutes ago, Donathan said:

Erm, no. I’ve not seen the incident in question so I’d invite you to provide a link, but in the vast majority of cases I’m going to trust the opinion of multiple officials with the benefit of being able to see several angles of the incident repeatedly, over that of one referee to the naked eye in real team.

 

I can understand the entertainment argument (although for me, competitive fairness is more important than entertaining the fans), but you cannot rationally argue that VAR has made the actual decision making worse. 

Competitive fairness lol. Football in general abandoned that a long time ago and it has nothing to do with referees. 

talk to me about fairness when the fundamental issues are addressed first. 

[10menwent2mow]

I'd argue that the standard of officiating in Scotland has got worse because in my opinion the refs are leaning too much on the technology and not making decisions in real time. They seem to be making a hell of a lot of 'clear and obvious errors' judging by how much VAR is being used. 

[craigkillie]

10 hours ago, EastFife_Hibee said:

Why can't we keep goal line technology and the semi automated offsides that they used in the world cup and put the rest of var in the bin??

Also if they let each linesman run the full length of the pitch then that would surely help with decisions, as 6 eyes are better than 4 Shirley??

One of the main reasons that they stick to a single half is so that each of them can only focus on offside decisions against a single team. Imagine both of them were up one end and then the defending team won the ball back and launched a big boot up the park. Both assistants would be down the other end about 50 yards away and wouldn't have a clue whether it was offside or not.