Who’s on the plane?

[2426255]

Just now, kingjoey said:

BBC Scotland website pushing for his inclusion.

Crags was gushing over the prospect. Probably the motivation for the original post on here.

[The Algebraist]

11 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

Crags was gushing over the prospect. Probably the motivation for the original post on here.

I hadn't noticed anything on the BBC to be fair but it's hardly surprising. It's a fairly obvious talking point. 

[2426255]

10 minutes ago, The Algebraist said:

I hadn't noticed anything on the BBC to be fair but it's hardly surprising. It's a fairly obvious talking point. 

Yeah, but if crags is saying it's a good idea then it's probably not. I rest my case.

[Bing.McCrosby]

5 hours ago, kingjoey said:

My post was about James Forrest specifically, but highlighting that it's happened in the past. Forrest has been a regular international in the past and is undoubtedly vastly experienced. If he had played against Dundee, not scored and had an average game there would be no-one saying he should be brought into the squad, so all this clamour is based on one game and one game only.

I suppose its also due to being short of players like that and recent injuries. 

Im not sure if the squad was named tomorrow if Forrest would be in or not. But there's a few games to go. So let's see how he does, he might be a very good option.

[Butters Scotch]

6 hours ago, kingjoey said:

My post was about James Forrest specifically, but highlighting that it's happened in the past. Forrest has been a regular international in the past and is undoubtedly vastly experienced. If he had played against Dundee, not scored and had an average game there would be no-one saying he should be brought into the squad, so all this clamour is based on one game and one game only.

To suggest anyone touting him is based on one game against Dundee is ridiculous. The guy is a good footballer playing for one of the top clubs in the country and has a lot of caps for Scotland already and would have more if it wasn't for injury. That, combined with us having a few injuries now/lack of other viable options are the main reasons he has come into the conversation.

[GordonS]

20 hours ago, Butters Scotch said:

To suggest anyone touting him is based on one game against Dundee is ridiculous. The guy is a good footballer playing for one of the top clubs in the country and has a lot of caps for Scotland already and would have more if it wasn't for injury. That, combined with us having a few injuries now/lack of other viable options are the main reasons he has come into the conversation.

That's it exactly. We all know of the phenomenon where someone has a couple of good games for the OF and suddenly they're hailed as the Second Coming. But Forrest is nowhere near that category. Before his injuries he was an automatic squad pick for Clarke and started more often than not. He scored a hat-trick to beat Israel, the only time (barring penalties) we've managed that in five matches against them. I'd argue he's done more in a Scotland shirt than Armstrong and not much less than Christie.

I think he's particularly valuable if we don't have Hickey or Paterson because he can give us some of the dynamism and threat high on the right that we'll lack with a lower quality right back that can't get forward as much.  He gives us options that nobody else can.

If he's fit and in form he's comfortably in a 26-man squad.

[craigkillie]

Forrest's legs are gone, there's no way we can even consider taking him as a wing-back option. As an attacking option, there's at least a tiny bit of a case that wasn't there a fortnight ago, but at the end of the day he's not a fraction of the player he was a few years ago, and even then he wasn't good enough against top level opposition.

He is not even remotely close to Christie or Armstrong as a player right now, the fact he had an excellent few months for us 5 years ago doesn't change that. We also did actually beat Israel at Hampden more recently than that.

Beyond the obvious attacking options, there are only two reasons to take a player along - either they have to be able to offer us something on the park or they have to be there to gain experience for the future. Forrest is neither at this point, there are several better wingers than him in the Scottish Premiership, let along elsewhere, and he is not going to be any use to us in the next campaign.

[Bing.McCrosby]

12 hours ago, craigkillie said:

Forrest's legs are gone, there's no way we can even consider taking him as a wing-back option. As an attacking option, there's at least a tiny bit of a case that wasn't there a fortnight ago, but at the end of the day he's not a fraction of the player he was a few years ago, and even then he wasn't good enough against top level opposition.

He is not even remotely close to Christie or Armstrong as a player right now, the fact he had an excellent few months for us 5 years ago doesn't change that. We also did actually beat Israel at Hampden more recently than that.

Beyond the obvious attacking options, there are only two reasons to take a player along - either they have to be able to offer us something on the park or they have to be there to gain experience for the future. Forrest is neither at this point, there are several better wingers than him in the Scottish Premiership, let along elsewhere, and he is not going to be any use to us in the next campaign.

So if hes called up you think Clarke would be making a mistake?

I'd be curious to hear your several available wingers in our league who are better than him?

[Ewanandmoreagain]

17 hours ago, GordonS said:

That's it exactly. We all know of the phenomenon where someone has a couple of good games for the OF and suddenly they're hailed as the Second Coming. But Forrest is nowhere near that category. Before his injuries he was an automatic squad pick for Clarke and started more often than not. He scored a hat-trick to beat Israel, the only time (barring penalties) we've managed that in five matches against them. I'd argue he's done more in a Scotland shirt than Armstrong and not much less than Christie.

I think he's particularly valuable if we don't have Hickey or Paterson because he can give us some of the dynamism and threat high on the right that we'll lack with a lower quality right back that can't get forward as much.  He gives us options that nobody else can.

If he's fit and in form he's comfortably in a 26-man squad.

If we don't have Hickey or Paterson I think SSC should give some consideration , at least , to Ryan Fraser

[Ewanandmoreagain]

2 hours ago, Bing.McCrosby said:

So if hes called up you think Clarke would be making a mistake?

I'd be curious to hear your several available wingers in our league who are better than him?

ATM Armstrong ?

[craigkillie]

2 hours ago, Bing.McCrosby said:

So if hes called up you think Clarke would be making a mistake?

I'd be curious to hear your several available wingers in our league who are better than him?

Danny Armstrong, Scott Wright, Blair Spittal and his own brother Alan Forrest for a start. Possibly Greg Kiltie as well. None of them really good enough to contribute either - Armstrong is the best of the lot but hasn't ever played at a higher level - but I think all of them have had far better seasons than James Forrest and would make a bigger contribution on the park if needed.

Unless he's some amazing character around the dressing room, or he is fitter than I think he is, I don't think it would be a good pick.

[JS_FFC]

In the last year Clarke has called up 

 

5 goalkeepers

16 defenders
10 midfielders

5 forwards

 

At the last Euros the squad composition was 3-10-10-3. 
 

The point I’m making is that the midfield is the area of the squad where we’ve had very little variance over the past 12 months. In fact not only has Clarke only called up 10 midfielders total, but one of them dropped out after a single training session under strange circumstances and hasn’t been seen since.

 

Now, the most optimistic scenario is that Ferguson is the only midfielder to miss out and both Armstrong and McTominay make it. Even at that, Clarke would need to call up one extra midfielder (Fraser?) and one additional defender/forward compared to last time’s squad.

 

If one or both or Armstrong/McTominay are worse than feared then we might need to see a creative pick.

[JagsCG]

18 hours ago, GordonS said:

Before his injuries he was an automatic squad pick for Clarke and started more often than not. He scored a hat-trick to beat Israel, the only time (barring penalties) we've managed that in five matches against them. I'd argue he's done more in a Scotland shirt than Armstrong and not much less than Christie.

That’s quite harsh. James Forrest was unplayable for about 2/3 games under McLeish, but other than that he was mostly disappointing in a Scotland shirt. We’ve beaten Israel since his hat trick (not including the penalties game). 

[2426255]

A mythology has built up around James Forrest's injury history to the point where non Celtic fans seem to work on an assumption that if he hasn't played it's because he's injured. That's not always been the case. For a lot of this season he was available for Celtic and not selected.

Forrest was out injured at the turn of the year for 2 months or so, but before that he wasn't and wasn't getting loads of game time. The Dundee game was the 2nd time this season where he played more than 45 minutes. There is a case to recall him, but a lot of things would have to swing his way in my view.

[Bing.McCrosby]

57 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Danny Armstrong, Scott Wright, Blair Spittal and his own brother Alan Forrest for a start. Possibly Greg Kiltie as well. None of them really good enough to contribute either - Armstrong is the best of the lot but hasn't ever played at a higher level - but I think all of them have had far better seasons than James Forrest and would make a bigger contribution on the park if needed.

Unless he's some amazing character around the dressing room, or he is fitter than I think he is, I don't think it would be a good pick.

Fair enough, id disagree with that tho. If James Forrest was at any of their clubs he would be starting before them.

[Skyline Drifter]

59 minutes ago, JagsCG said:

That’s quite harsh. James Forrest was unplayable for about 2/3 games under McLeish, but other than that he was mostly disappointing in a Scotland shirt. We’ve beaten Israel since his hat trick (not including the penalties game). 

Mmm, you're right that he had a short lived burst of form under McLeish where he was outstandingly good but it was a burst of about two months in practice. I remember before that being utterly convinced he had incriminating photos of Strachan in some compromising pose as he kept getting picked time after time and had done about as much as me in a Scotland shirt.

I agree his Scotland career before and after that short burst of form has largely been forgettable.

[A Diamond For Me]

19 hours ago, GordonS said:

That's it exactly. We all know of the phenomenon where someone has a couple of good games for the OF and suddenly they're hailed as the Second Coming. But Forrest is nowhere near that category. Before his injuries he was an automatic squad pick for Clarke and started more often than not. He scored a hat-trick to beat Israel, the only time (barring penalties) we've managed that in five matches against them. I'd argue he's done more in a Scotland shirt than Armstrong and not much less than Christie.

I think he's particularly valuable if we don't have Hickey or Paterson because he can give us some of the dynamism and threat high on the right that we'll lack with a lower quality right back that can't get forward as much.  He gives us options that nobody else can.

If he's fit and in form he's comfortably in a 26-man squad.

 

I hate* to be pedantic, but we beat them at Hampden as well, when McTominay scored late on.


*absolutely do not hate

[TeeMan]

For one week in 2019 Forrest was the best international footballer on planet earth. No way is he a viable option for right wing back at the Euros, he might be worth a spot off the bench as an attacker in an expanded squad but I'm not sure I'm in a position to judge having only seen him in Sunday's game in the recent past. Fraser would be ahead of him anyway (who I also don't think is a viable wing back option)

[TeeMan]

2 minutes ago, TeeMan said:

For one week in 2019 Forrest was the best international footballer on planet earth. No way is he a viable option for right wing back at the Euros, he might be worth a spot off the bench as an attacker in an expanded squad but I'm not sure I'm in a position to judge having only seen him in Sunday's game in the recent past. Fraser would be ahead of him anyway (who I also don't think is a viable wing back option)

I think you could make a case for that one week being the start of where we are now though (it is in my mind) and the trip to Albania was quality.

[MarkoRaj]

Far too premature to say Forrest's legs have gone

He's looked very sharp the last few weeks, particularly today.

He's only 31 and has been injured on and off for 2 years. Needs an extended run of games before he can be judged