The New Raith Rovers Thread

[RoversMad]

I thought it was a good meeting, at least the club is letting us hear how it is from them rather than through the MSM.

Turnbull was also brutally honest re our finances, despite cutting our budget year on year we are still losing over £100k/yr.

some notes I took from this evening, excuse the somewhat random order

Currently first division winners receive £100k prize money , 2nd place gets £90k

under the proposals the ADDITIONAL prize money for the 1st div would be

1st £419k

2nd £352K

4th £218k

5th £177k

6th £127k

at that point Eric drysdale was interupted I think and we didnt get figures for 7th through 10th but in total there shall be £4.2m redistributed from the current SPL pot to the rest of SFL

those sums are paid after the 22 game "sprint league"

if you end up in the top 4 then you enter the play off league with the bottom 4 in SPL (although this will no longer be called SPL) with all 8 teams starting on 0 points and playing each other home and away (no prize money in this league, only gate money, finish top 4 you start next season in the top 12, finish bottom 4 you are in the 2nd 12)

If you end up bottom 8 you keep your points total and carry on, there will be probably 2 automatic promotion/relegation spots and a 2 play off spots from the bottom 8, the mechanics of which are still to be finalised.

SPL dont care whether it 18 or 10-10 below the 12-12, and apparently it was only East Stirling and Rangers who want the 10-10 (ALLEGEDLY as Mr Green gets a bonus if The Rangers win a championship.......)

The whole of the SFL/SPL shall fall under one governing body with much fairer voting rights (although we do not know the exact details) meaning the top league can no longer block/veto changes

Hutton also confirmed that the SFL were pretty much blackmailed into playing ball with the SPL on the Rangers situation, that if we didnt allow Rangers into SFL 1 then the SPL would set up an SPL2 and handpick clubs to join what would become a closed shop, any clubs who voted against Rangers would not be invited, so fair play to all the clubs who did vote against Rangers for standing up to the bullies!!!!

These proposed changes are basically take it or leave it, if its turned down the SPL plan to make a closed shop 2 leagues of 10, but importantly, if the plan goes through then it makes changes in the future much easier due to the fairer voting and one governing body.

I went along tonight with an open mind and having heard the figures quoted and the forecast if the status quo remains I am behind the proposals,

Yes for the first few years the top SFL1 clubs may struggle to compete with the bottom SPL clubs but given the vastly increased prize payments for the SFL1 then the gap between the top of SFL1 and the lower end SPL clubs should shorten over time.

[RoversMad]

How much does a club currently finishing 5th in Division One receive, and how much do those clubs in the bottom tiers receive for their final standings?

Proportionately, they're bound to lose out.

They have been gauranteed they will not be worse off, they will get at least the same as they do now, with the additional hope that over time an exciting new league structure would generate more sponsorship/tv money which would cascade down through the leagues.

& I think Donny is right, Im sure it was around 70k for finishing 5th in SFL1 currently (which would become £247k under the new system)

[Michael W]

Good posts, thank you. I couldn't make the meeting as I was at work.

I'm not seeing where this extra £300k that we would be better off is coming from, though. Yes those proposals are better for us financially, but not quite as much as the first post on the subject claimed.

The voting criteria was labelled as being weighted as 3-2-1 down the leagues. That certainly isn't a fair structure at all, and it will be an utter disaster if that goes through.

It's sad, but we're going to take what we can get, despite the fact it lands us with a shit structure and AGAIN ignores the desires of the fans for a larger top flight. They're happy to cascade £4.2M down the leagues, but not happy to miss out on the prospect of four OF gates per season? I don't get this at all.

The 18 or 10-10 league teams being 'no worse off' isn't an endorsement, tbh. They'll be demoted even further behind the first division than they are currently in terms of resources.

I really can't be enthusiastic about these proposals at all. The structure is rancid, we get a slightly larger first division, the winners don't even get promoted and future attempts to expand the leagues are more than likely going to be shot down in flames by a biased voting structure. Finishing in the bottom 8 and playing to avoid relegation is also a certain turnoff for the fans.

It stinks, and it has self-preservation written all over it. We get more money, but nothing else that we were pushing for. The saddest thing is that I doubt anyone gives a f**k: they've got more money, and that's all they care about. Screw what the fans think.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Michael W

[Paco]

I should've really asked someone to ask this on my behalf tonight, but the SFL have obviously given clubs the figures of sponsorship money passed down, as mentioned by RoversMad (cheers for the summary, btw).

What money is this? Where is it from? Clydesdale Bank's sponsorship with SPL runs out this season, as does Irn-Bru's of the SFL. Is it based on the new sponsor of the SPL? Based on the current income? What if the new deal brings in less/more than Clydesdale, will the redistributed funds fluctuate accordingly, or is it a fixed sum? Is the sponsorship being offered as one package now we'll be under one governing body? What if a company just wants to sponsor the Premier? Is it based on TV money and other associated sponsorships? What happens to the TV deal when the top two leagues do the 8-8-8 split? Can they cover any games they like, or just top eight? If they're bringing more clubs into the TV deal will the income be raised from it? Is the TV deal a separate income altogether? If so who receives money from it? Just the top 12? The second 12 too? Everybody?

I totally understand why we feel we need to go for this but someone somewhere has to be asking Doncaster and Regan these questions. I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Paco

[CALDERON]

The thing that fucks me off with the proposals is - the champions don't get promoted straight away. And also the fact the shite SPL teams don't get relegated straight away. The mini league is nothing more than self preservation.

However, looks like its this or nothing, and after thinking about it, I can see why Turnbull is behind it as he is looking out for the clubs finances.

[donny86]

It sounded like there was already a sponsor lined up and that is why they are pushing it through for the start if next season

Also mentioned sky putting in another 2 million. Current SPL prize money will be cut too with the winners receiving 100k less and for some reason the runners up 500k less

I was sceptical about the lack of automatic promotion too but as Turnbull put it, if we don't get up through that they we probably would have got humped in the SPL anyway.

Listening last night it seemed like this will let the Rovers slowly build to where we could compete in the top league without the sort of boom or bust model there is now

Edited February 6, 2013 by donny86

[GreenockRover]

Great feedback guys, cheers.

For me, the voting structure as suggested (3,2,1) is a major worry. Any voting system that weights itself to give more power to a specific section is invariably bad for the majority. I would be happier knowing also what the voting agreement level is as well.

Anything that stops Chuckie from awarding himself his 100% promotion bonus suits me....so 12-12-18 it is please ;-)

Everything else, for me, is really about trusting TH and giving him our backing until we see how this all pans out.

Oh, and both Mssrs Doncaster and Reagan to be told to re-apply (unsuccessfully) for the ONE new post...

I guess we've all seen change over the years....it must be that time again.

[Yoss]

Thanks to the club for doing that. Hutton spoke very cogently about why he thought this was the best option available for both Raith and the SFL, Eric Drysdale backed him up with the details of the new proposals where required, though there's some detail that still needs to be worked through.

Essentially TH said the SFL had a "shopping list" of things they would like from league reconstruction, which included:

- fairer distribution of income

- a single league body

- fairer voting rights

- relaxed rules on stadium requirements

And then, ideally, other stuff like the pyramid, more promotion opportunities and so forth.

Essentially the new proposals tick all of these boxes, in his view, and it's the SPL that are making the biggest sacrifices in order to make it happen. Of the £4.2 million extra cash that would be fed down the leagues, about half would be coming from extra sponsorship (it remains to be seen whether they've actually got this lined up or if it turns out to be illusory) and half is being voluntarily given up by the top league, with the top two teams in particular being the big losers.

The biggest winners, financially, are the second tier teams - the lower leagues have merely been assured that they will be at least no worse off. The plan is that there would thus be a more gradual tail off of income as you go down the league, rather than the sudden cliff there is at present - and there's a recognition that this would in any case need to happen for teams from the second tier to stand a chance of being able to compete within the middle 8 group come the play-offs.

Whether it really provides more promotion opportunities is open to debate, but TH observed that he if a team was unable to compete within that middle 8 group then they wouldn't be in a good state to be promoted outright anyway. Both he and Drysdale were also hopeful that the splits and play-offs would provide more interest and excitement (and, hopefully, crowds) in their own right in any case.

The one big box that's unchecked is of course the desire for a bigger top tier, but they were quite clear that this isn't an either / or option at this stage. No there isn't a bigger top division but thre's no other proposal that does so either - these proposals address other issues instead, which should be considered on their own terms. The 12-12-18 (or 12-12-10-10 if two clubs get their way) is not set in stone for the long-term and can be changed if it doesn't work. If anything progress towards a larger league would be more, rather than less, likely under the new set-up - firstly by evening up the finances between the top two tiers to make such a thing more feasible, but more importantly because a single league structure will make such decision-making much easier in future.

As I've said before I was already receptive to these proposals anyway - there were at least some others at the meeting who were clearly a lot less convinced - but the club have given us some info we didn't previously have and have given a fairly clear set of arguments as to why they think it's for the best.

[RoversMad]

Current SPL prize money will be cut too with the winners receiving 100k less and for some reason the runners up 500k less

Those figures were strange to me too,

I can only assume the prize money for 1st & 2nd were grossly inflated compared to 3rd, which wouldn't surprise me given which clubs were finishing 1st & 2nd before one of them imploded.

[pub car king]

The only way this will enefit the game will be if it actualy does become easier to get things voted through in the future so scottish football can take its time to come up with a decent league or pyramid structure. However i suspect it will be booby trapped to save the same shite bags we have now.

[Michael W]

The only way this will enefit the game will be if it actualy does become easier to get things voted through in the future so scottish football can take its time to come up with a decent league or pyramid structure. However i suspect it will be booby trapped to save the same shite bags we have now.

They won't benefit the game as a whole, but will benefit clubs in the second 12.

Unless there are plans for at least two promotion slots, the '18' won't gain anything. Funny how all we get told is how much richer clubs in the second tier will be, eh? They let the voting structure out the bag early on and seem intent on ignoring it now and they won't tell us about promotion/relegation from the second tier. There are these, and I get the feeling there's something else that we're being kept in the dark over; something that will utterly screw us all.

It's also funny how the SPL appear happy to cascade a few millions to the paupers below, but any format that seems them only face the OF once at their own grounds in a no-no. Why is this?

These proposals are a sham, and it sickens me that they're going to go through. We've taken a wee sweetner which will effectively kill off future prospects of reconstruction, and I bet the SPL clubs are pissing themselves laughing about. Imagine being in that league of 8, fighting to avoid relegation to the abyss? (our first division record over the years suggests this will be us more often than not). Honestly, f**k that. At a time of struggling attendances, we're in danger of alienating yet more fans from the game with a nonsense structure that will bring plenty and plenty of pointless matches.

Never mind, though - who gives a f**k what the fans think when the sponsors can come up with a few million.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Michael W

[Fotbawmad]

Audio extract from the meeting

EDIT: Just for clarification the actual meeting lasted 90 mins. After an hour there was a Q&A, all of which has been done to death on here.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Fotbawmad

[Double Jack D]

Michael, I think you need to take a step back and look at these proposals with a bit of pragmatism.

Its the only deal on the table and its a massive step forward. Is 12-12-18 the ideal structure? Nobody knows but if its not the new voting structure will make it far easier to change than the current one.

All important boxes ticked for changing the major ills in Scottish game though.

[Michael W]

The fact there is nothing on the table is absolutely not a justification for these proposals.

I am looking at this from a pragmatic viewpoint - namely that future reconstruction is essentially gubbed. The voting structure is disgraceful; why have a single body if some of those members are more equal than others (this has been let out the bag already). Moreover, what are these 'reserved matters'? No doubt a 75% majority required for league reconstruction. It's only slightly less worse than the SPL and their 11-1 voting system, which I'll kindly point out remains despite Rangers no longer being in the league. Inexplicably, Aberdeen blocked the attempt to change it.

This is a baby step forward, not a massive one, and it simply does not 'tick all the important boxes'. It is also a step forward into an almost certain pint of no return.

One league body? Check

Fairer distribution of income? Check

Less meaningless matches? Fail

Fair voting system? Fail

A larger top flight? Fail

A well structured system? Fail

Pyramid system - Possible check

The only winner here is Neil Doncaster - the SPL clubs will be very difficult to out vote and the top flight stays at 12. It's cost him a few million, but he still has what he wants.

The fact that it's litter with splits says it all - splits are bad enough when used in one league, but across leagues? That's a nonsense.

[Double Jack D]

So, looking at it pragmaticly, what would be your realistic alternative?

[Fotbawmad]

The fact there is nothing on the table is absolutely not a justification for these proposals.

I am looking at this from a pragmatic viewpoint - namely that future reconstruction is essentially gubbed. The voting structure is disgraceful; why have a single body if some of those members are more equal than others (this has been let out the bag already). Moreover, what are these 'reserved matters'? No doubt a 75% majority required for league reconstruction. It's only slightly less worse than the SPL and their 11-1 voting system, which I'll kindly point out remains despite Rangers no longer being in the league. Inexplicably, Aberdeen blocked the attempt to change it.

This is a baby step forward, not a massive one, and it simply does not 'tick all the important boxes'. It is also a step forward into an almost certain pint of no return.

One league body? Check

Fairer distribution of income? Check

Less meaningless matches? Fail

Fair voting system? Fail

A larger top flight? Fail

A well structured system? Fail

Pyramid system - Possible check

The only winner here is Neil Doncaster - the SPL clubs will be very difficult to out vote and the top flight stays at 12. It's cost him a few million, but he still has what he wants.

The fact that it's litter with splits says it all - splits are bad enough when used in one league, but across leagues? That's a nonsense.

Assuming you listened to what TH and ED said. They've been handed a shopping list by the SPL of "If you won't accept this proposal, we'll do this". Take the lesser poison and try to wriggle out a better deal down the line.

[Michael W]

Realistically? I'd keep the 12 team top flight and revert to two up two down. For me, that's better than the three splits of 8 nonsense, and it does provide better access to the top flight which is something we all want. If the revenue gap is narrowed as the current proposals claim, then surely SPL clubs have nothing to fear from relegation? Or, would suggesting this expose the rank hypocrisy over league size - namely that two home gates against the OF will leave them out of pocket, yet chucking some money down a tier is fine financially?

As for what I would like to see - a 16 team top flight. Sadly, this would require a split which I'm not a fan of, but unless we go for 18 teams plus, we can't avoid them. Below that I'm not quite sure. I won't be against the 16-10-16 that the SFL initially proposed, for example, or even 16-16-10.

To be honest, as long as there's a larger top flight I'm not too bothered about the structure below. 10-10-10 is OK, and a 12 team top flight wouldn't be quite so bad if it was less of a closed shop. For me, though, the ultimate goal is an expanded top flight.

[Michael W]

Assuming you listened to what TH and ED said. They've been handed a shopping list by the SPL of "If you won't accept this proposal, we'll do this". Take the lesser poison and try to wriggle out a better deal down the line.

I wasn't there.

There has not, however, been a single peep out of the SPL regarding break away leagues in the press. They were remarkably quick to roll out the scaremongering - including breakaway leagues - when we were going to refuse Rangers entry into Division One, yet haven't been quite the same this time.

Until such threats are made public, I'm simply not having them.

[Paco]

The SPL2 blackmail stuff remains as much of a red herring now as it did during the Rangers debacle. It still takes two years for clubs to resign the SFL and they won't find ten/twelve sides 'big' enough and willing to join. If Hutton is now peddling this line I'd be severely disappointed.

What could easily happen if we don't accept these is the SPL taking everything out and leaving it as it is though, I accept that. And with full-time football in this league being utterly unsustainable I'm not sure that's a risk we can take.

Edited February 9, 2013 by Paco

[Fotbawmad]

I wasn't there.

There has not, however, been a single peep out of the SPL regarding break away leagues in the press. They were remarkably quick to roll out the scaremongering - including breakaway leagues - when we were going to refuse Rangers entry into Division One, yet haven't been quite the same this time.

Until such threats are made public, I'm simply not having them.

There is audio from the meeting just a few posts up.