The Falkirk FC Thread

[Shadwell Dog]

I think it's difficult to compare success with the Highland Academy in particular. Not only is it much newer, but inherently it has a massive geographic disadvantage compared to Falkirk and everyone else Central Belt. I doubt they manage to persuade too many kids from South of Perth to travel up there at an early age so they have a very limited population to find players in. Falkirk of course are competing with a dozen other academies for players and have different challenges in identifying players before other clubs and selling themselves to the ones they want but they also have a much larger player pool to look at.

Similarly our own situation more mirrors the Highland one geographically. Much lower population centre to pull from which is part of the reason why we run a smaller Academy programme with less teams (we operate three age groups whereas the elite academies operate six).

However, all that said, there seems little doubt that the Falkirk academy over the years has probably been the most successful in bringing players through and moving them on for good fees. For all the publicity of Hamilton for instance they only really did it with three players (McCarthy, McArthur & Easton) and Livingston with five or six (Griffiths, Snodgrass, Dorrans, McNulty, Donaldson).

The highland academy has been up and running since 2002 which is about the same time that we started looking at setting one up properly. Whilst they may have a smaller pool to pick from their success rate is still pretty woeful considering they've been up and running for nearly 14 years.

[drs]

As others have mentioned, we have now merged with other local clubs (Stirling, Stenhousemuir etc) to create the Forth Valley Academy.

Stirling and Alloa aren't in it, its just the Falkirk clubs and the rumour going around is that one of the other 2 clubs will be pulling out at the end of the season.

[Shadwell Dog]

Wouldn't be surprised if Stenny pulled out as their rooked just now and I think it costs the clubs a certain amount of cash per player in the academy. Most of the teams now seem to be flooded with Falkirk players with only 2 or 3 from Stenny.

[Gaz FFC]

I think it's difficult to compare success with the Highland Academy in particular. Not only is it much newer, but inherently it has a massive geographic disadvantage compared to Falkirk and everyone else Central Belt. I doubt they manage to persuade too many kids from South of Perth to travel up there at an early age so they have a very limited population to find players in. Falkirk of course are competing with a dozen other academies for players and have different challenges in identifying players before other clubs and selling themselves to the ones they want but they also have a much larger player pool to look at.

Similarly our own situation more mirrors the Highland one geographically. Much lower population centre to pull from which is part of the reason why we run a smaller Academy programme with less teams (we operate three age groups whereas the elite academies operate six).

However, all that said, there seems little doubt that the Falkirk academy over the years has probably been the most successful in bringing players through and moving them on for good fees. For all the publicity of Hamilton for instance they only really did it with three players (McCarthy, McArthur & Easton) and Livingston with five or six (Griffiths, Snodgrass, Dorrans, McNulty, Donaldson).

I don't think you meant to but your post came across as bitter as f**k towards Falkirk.

Coming up with a bunch of excuses as to why the Highland academy is such a failure.

Even though Yogi as Falkirk manager use to use a lot of younger players, he certainly isn't at Inverness.

Ross C are just a subsidised joke that will do anything to stay up and that means youth can bolt.

Neither will play youth as long as they stay in the Premiership.

Considering how many teams FFC have to beat off to sign any player in the Central belt I'd argue we are at a disadvantage to the Highland teams.

Sure, they probably won't sign any players south of Perth.

But the competition north of Perth is nonexistent

Edited November 25, 2015 by Gaz FFC

[Gaz FFC]

Falkirk also gave agreements with local boys clubs that if one of the BC players are approached by pro youth the BC advise Falkirk of this.

Falkirk then hope to nab the kid first. Happened to a lad I know who was approached by Rangers then joined Falkirk

Saved him then

[Shadwell Dog]

At the end of the day you can have the best academy on the planet but you've got to have boards and managers in post willing to give the young players a go or your just pissing money down the drain. It certainly helped us out a hole when we were struggling financially but it also pushed us into playing young players as we couldn't afford any more experienced ones. The likes of ICT and Ross County aren't being pushed to play youngsters as they've both got financial backers who are willing to finance experienced teams in the top flight. RC for instance just go out and sign squads of new players every time they get into a spot of bother. They pick up numerous journeymen from down south and this keeps them in the top flight but doesn't do anything to bring through young talent. Apart from the lad Dingwall theres been very few others break into the first team and its the same with Christie at ICT. At some point you would hope that the SFA would start to wonder where the cash grants that they are giving the highland academy are actually going as there's hee haw evidence that its on producing young players.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Shadwell Dog

[Skyline Drifter]

The highland academy has been up and running since 2002 which is about the same time that we started looking at setting one up properly. Whilst they may have a smaller pool to pick from their success rate is still pretty woeful considering they've been up and running for nearly 14 years.

I wasn't conscious at all it had been going that long though I see from their website that the Trust was founded then. I was going by when they built the facility behind the away end at Dingwall which was much later. Not sure what they did before that. Fair enough though, it's obviously been going longer than I thought. They still don't have much population to find footballers in though.

I don't think you meant to but your post came across as bitter as f**k towards Falkirk.

Coming up with a bunch of excuses as to why the Highland academy is such a failure.

Even though Yogi as Falkirk manager use to use a lot of younger players, he certainly isn't at Inverness.

Ross C are just a subsidised joke that will do anything to stay up and that means youth can bolt.

Neither will play youth as long as they stay in the Premiership.

Considering how many teams FFC have to beat off to sign any player in the Central belt I'd argue we are at a disadvantage to the Highland teams.

Sure, they probably won't sign any players south of Perth.

But the competition north of Perth is nonexistent

It certainly wasn't meant to and I don't really see how you could read it as bitter to be honest. I've re-read it now and I can't see what's giving you that impression. On the contrary it was meant to be very complimentary of the Falkirk set up and I was pointing out that for all the publicity Hamilton get they've only really produced three players of note.

Falkirk have a really good academy set up and because of that they probably are among the best placed to get new players in a competitive but relatively mass market. I don't think you can claim that's a disadvantage compared to an Academy that can pick up a fraction of the players whether there be competition or not. You could put all the best football coaches in the world in San Marino, it still wouldn't make their international team top class, they simply don't have enough players to work with.The same principle applies. I've no reason to defend the Highland Football Academy. I know little about it and it may well be rubbish for all I know. Just pointing out it's an apple and pears comparison.

[Shadwell Dog]

You never came across to me certainly as being bitter Skyline just playing devils advocate a wee bit. I would think you'd probably agree though that for 14 years work and a decent amount of cash the return our of the highland academy just hasn't been good enough even if you take into acccount their location. Whether this is down to the coaching available or them simply not being given a chance by the clubs themselves I'm not entirely sure.

[Believe The Hype]

You could put all the best football coaches in the world in San Marino, it still wouldn't make their international team top class, they simply don't have enough players to work with.

Just pointing out it's an apple and pears comparison.

Which also in the same vein begs the question, what are Iceland, with an entire population somewhere between Wakefield and Bristol, doing right ?

[Skyline Drifter]

Which also in the same vein begs the question, what are Iceland, with an entire population somewhere between Wakefield and Bristol, doing right ?

That's very true. Iceland have done a tremendous job which, if what I've read on the subject is correct, relates to state sponsored training of coaches (they have more B Licence holders per head of population than any other country I believe) and a massive investment in 3G pitches so that there is constant availability of those to all age groups. Not quite the same scenario as a regional football academy.

[Gaz FFC]

It certainly wasn't meant to and I don't really see how you could read it as bitter to be honest. I've re-read it now and I can't see what's giving you that impression. On the contrary it was meant to be very complimentary of the Falkirk set up and I was pointing out that for all the publicity Hamilton get they've only really produced three players of note.

Falkirk have a really good academy set up and because of that they probably are among the best placed to get new players in a competitive but relatively mass market. I don't think you can claim that's a disadvantage compared to an Academy that can pick up a fraction of the players whether there be competition or not. You could put all the best football coaches in the world in San Marino, it still wouldn't make their international team top class, they simply don't have enough players to work with.The same principle applies. I've no reason to defend the Highland Football Academy. I know little about it and it may well be rubbish for all I know. Just pointing out it's an apple and pears comparison.

Fair play then, my bad.

I'm glad you pointed out the Hamilton example as I also feel they get bummed up for very little.

I'm not even sure where Easton is these days but certainly the other 2 are doing very well.

[Guest]

As others have said, we've had the academy for a good while now. I couldn't tell you the exact dates but it must have been set up around the time we moved to the new stadium, and was set up mainly due to the hard work of John Hughes and George Craig - an idea backed by our chairman Campbell Christie.

The costs associated with running the academy was a factor to the financial mess we were in when we came down (rumoured to be costing us over £500k a season) as no financial help was provided to first division clubs - whilst I believe there were substantial subsidies for running one in the SPL.

Ironically, these financial problems forced us to cut back on the playing budget and get academy graduates in to the first team from a young age. Some were thrown in miles before they were ready (McGrandles, Kingsley etc) as extremely raw 16/17 year olds. If you're ever fortunate enough to take the stadium tour, there is a Wall of Fame - picturing every academy graduate to make a senior appearance for Falkirk - it is quite a sight.

I suspect the coaching and recruitment is of a fairly high standard. As far as I know the kids generally come from the Falkirk district, and probably no further away than Stirling/Fife. Getting them in to the club from a fairly young age is key I suspect. Some are picked up later than others and from other clubs - for example Murray Wallace was signed at 15/16, having spent a couple of years at Rangers.

I believe Falkirk was also the trial for Mark Wotte's 'school of football' idea. Clearly the quality of player produced was improved because these are now in place in regions across Scotland.

As others have mentioned, we have now merged with other local clubs (Stirling, Stenhousemuir etc) to create the Forth Valley Academy. As far as I know we still have our own players, but the running costs are generally shared. Others who have a better knowledge of the academy seem extremely excited by some of the prospects currently on the books. I guess we'll just have to wait and see whether the standard can be maintained - or even improved upon.

The good news is that we're now in excellent financial health as a club. It means we can offer better, longer term contracts to our most promising young players, giving them time to develop properly (not disappearing down south at 16 never to be seen again), and we don't have to snap the hand off for the very first bid that come along. I really can't see us accepting many bids of under £500k in future.

Hopefully there aren't too many mistakes in there. No matter what, it certainly took a lot of money and hard work to get the academy to where it is now. Only now and in the coming years I think are we (and hopefully the future national side) going to start reaping the full benefits.

The Academy cost us nothing like 500k/year.

By the time grants were taking into consideration it cost us 6 figures, just.

If you think our financial health will boost the numbers we get I would think again. Not convinced we have the quality we had except Tony Gallagher.

At the AGM Houston said, young players are prevented from signing longer contracts by their agents.

We will sell when it suits the Board as we have always done whether they have had 10 games or 100 games.

[Guest]

Ok Falkirk friends, my latest genuine question(s):

Someone posted a list earlier of the players Falkirk have brought through and moved on for good money. It actually made for pretty impressive reading.

It begged questions about where the money goes, but my question is, what's the secret?

Is it a question of Falkirk having a really excellent coaching set up at their Academy?

Is it a question of excellent recruitment in the first place of very good kids?

Is it a combination of various things?

Has a great deal of money been invested in this side of things?

Do most of these guys come from the Falkirk area, or are they from all over the central belt?

I know these questions probably have blindingly obvious answers, but I'm just interested.

The money has gone to keep the club afloat and pay off over 800k of debt to Directors and investors in the club and the plastic pitch. Falkirk have no debt at all now.

The club in a normal year in The Championship turns over c£1.2m without a cup run or player sale. We will receive around 250k extra now from the next SPFL funding taking the income up to c£1.5m. The overhead is about £1.7m so the club does not work without cup runs or player sales.

That gap was a lot larger in the past and a lot of the player sales were there just to fill in the black hole.

The rest of your questions I think are down to recruitment and proving to lads and parents there is a clearly early pathway to the first team and a transfer to the riches of England. We now have a track record for it, hence the Scoltand Under 17 captain signing for us when he turned 16 in the summer. Everyone and their auntie were after him apparently.

I would doubt our coaching is much better if at all than most.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

That's very true. Iceland have done a tremendous job which, if what I've read on the subject is correct, relates to state sponsored training of coaches (they have more B Licence holders per head of population than any other country I believe) and a massive investment in 3G pitches so that there is constant availability of those to all age groups. Not quite the same scenario as a regional football academy.

genuine question, are the iceland senior team all born/ grown up in iceland itself or are they full of granny rulers ?

you could point to ireland as a measure of a succesfull small nation but theyd be feckin gash without their second rate english squad players, i know they have keane and coleman etc but their squad would be fairly weak if it was limited to born players,

[Skyline Drifter]

genuine question, are the iceland senior team all born/ grown up in iceland itself or are they full of granny rulers ?

you could point to ireland as a measure of a succesfull small nation but theyd be feckin gash without their second rate english squad players, i know they have keane and coleman etc but their squad would be fairly weak if it was limited to born players,

Not quite sure how i am suddenly being presumed the oracle on Iceland!

However at a glance I dont see any granny rule inclusions in the Icelandic squad.

That said its one of football's urban myths that the Irish are full of players born elsewhere. That may have had some truth back in Jack Charlton's day. Its not really the case now though. Obviously everyone knows about McGeady and McCarthy, both Scots born (McGeady isnt a regular starter though). Jon Walters is Liverpool born but other than that only a handful of fringe defenders (Cyrus Christie, Richard Keogh, Ciaran Clark) are English born. The rest are genuine Irishmen I think.

[ajwffc]

Not quite sure how i am suddenly being presumed the oracle on Iceland!

However at a glance I dont see any granny rule inclusions in the Icelandic squad.

That said its one of football's urban myths that the Irish are full of players born elsewhere. That may have had some truth back in Jack Charlton's day. Its not really the case now though. Obviously everyone knows about McGeady and McCarthy, both Scots born (McGeady isnt a regular starter though). Jon Walters is Liverpool born but other than that only a handful of fringe defenders (Cyrus Christie, Richard Keogh, Ciaran Clark) are English born. The rest are genuine Irishmen I think.

In there last squat they had

2 from Scotland (McGeady, McCarthy)

5 from England (Clark, Keogh, Christie, Arther, Walters)

3 from Northern Island (Gibson, Wilson, McClean)

[Skyline Drifter]

In there last squat they had

2 from Scotland (McGeady, McCarthy)

5 from England (Clark, Keogh, Christie, Arther, Walters)

3 from Northern Island (Gibson, Wilson, McClean)

Without getting into the whole Irish debate there are political and cultural reasons why some players from Northern Ireland choose to represent the Republic. It's hardly a typical granny rule recruitment from elsewhere because they aren't good enough for a bigger side.

As for the other seven, I mentioned six of them and Arter has a single cap to his name. The team that faced Bosnia in the 2nd leg had four players in it not Irish born (McCarthy, Walters, Keogh and Clark) and one of those only played because O'Shea wasn't fit.

There was lots of controversy about the background to McGeady's decision to play for Ireland but Arter, Keogh and McCarthy have always considered themselves Irish and played for Ireland through various youth levels even if they happen to have been born elsewhere. Walters too played for them at u21 level before becoming a senior. Only Clark of the players you name has actually been parachuted in as a senior player. The idea that they'd be fairly weak without the granny rule is fanciful and it's worth remembering there are about as many non Scots born players in the Scotland squad. Russell Martin, Matt Ritchie, Shaun Maloney, Steven Fletcher, James Morrison and Jordan Rhodes were all born outside Scotland and at least three of those would have considered themselves English until actually called up as seniors.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Skyline Drifter

[Marshmallo]

Falkirk Herald reporting that Baird and Muirhead are close to signing up for an additional year. We've seen this season the difference between major upheaval and continuity season to season so getting two quality Championship players tied up early would be great news.

[Shadwell Dog]

I don't think its a good thing that players from the North can play for the south and vice versa. For a start football should not be political and it can only weaken the Northern Irish team which is already struggling for quality players. As long as theyare both separate countries( and I couldn't give a feck either way) then they should face the same eligibility rules as any other country. Why should the rules for them be any different than for others.

[gav-ffc]

Falkirk Herald reporting that Baird and Muirhead are close to signing up for an additional year. We've seen this season the difference between major upheaval and continuity season to season so getting two quality Championship players tied up early would be great news.

Decent.

Edit to add: That means we would have first team players Muirhead, Vaulks, Grant, Taiwo, Baird, McHugh, Sibbald all signed up so far if i am right and the likes of Gallagher,Ohara and Blair are signed up aswell i am sure.

Leahy has been offered a new deal also.

Edited November 26, 2015 by gav-ffc