Sportsound Watch

[Fifespud]

A wee bit of 1983-ism there from "Biscuits" Preston.
What a fucking twat.

I realise I’m a Dundee fan but he talks about United as if they were Real Madrid when in reality they are a provincial club, much like my own who had a brief spell at the top of the Scottish game. What about Dunfermline, Clyde, Third Lanark ffs.

[ropy]

7 hours ago, HIT THE CHANNEL said:

Was just on to comment about that - absolute sycophancy.

Also amusing and annoying in equal measure to hear the complaining about how unfair the premiership play off system is - designed by clubs like Yinited, Hibs, etc to protect them - when it hinders getting 'oor big clubs in the tap league'.  Its lovely when protectionism comes back to bite.

If the 2nd placed championship team gets through they will have played the exact same number of games as the 11th placed premiership team.  If one of the 3rd or 4th placed teams get through they will have played 2 more, that's the price for not finishing second, not overly stacked but does it favour the premiership club as they are likely to be a better team?  To make it fairer, exclude the fourth placed team.

Edited March 24, 2018 by ropy

[sugna]

9 hours ago, ropy said:

If the 2nd placed championship team gets through they will have played the exact same number of games as the 11th placed premiership team.  If one of the 3rd or 4th placed teams get through they will have played 2 more, that's the price for not finishing second, not overly stacked but does it favour the premiership club as they are likely to be a better team?  To make it fairer, exclude the fourth placed team.

To make it fairer, follow exactly the same rules as the two other - non-protectionist - play-offs. That fact that there are different rules says it all.

[RandomGuy.]

26 minutes ago, sugna said:

To make it fairer, follow exactly the same rules as the two other - non-protectionist - play-offs. That fact that there are different rules says it all.

That's because the top flight has 38 regular games and the seaside leagues have 36. 

Top flight teams and the Championship side who make the Final play the same amount of games before the Final, and play the same amount of games in the week before the Final. This "advantage" is utterly fictional, and nobody ever makes a genuine suggestion as to how to make it fairer other than "make 11th play in the Semis", which wouldn't work as the top flight teams would then be disadvantaged due to playing more games. 

Fwiw I'm still not convinced there should be three play off spots. The fact a team can finish mid table and still get promoted is a bit mental. I'd also add a similar system to the Italian one, if a team finishes 15-20+ points ahead of third they should be straight into the Final, if a team finished 15-20+ behind 11th they should be relegated straight out and the Championship clubs battle to see who takes that spot, unless 2nd finishes 15-20+ points ahead of 3rd, in which case they get promoted straight up. 

Edited March 25, 2018 by RandomGuy.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

I realise I’m a Dundee fan but he talks about United as if they were Real Madrid when in reality they are a provincial club, much like my own who had a brief spell at the top of the Scottish game. What about Dunfermline, Clyde, Third Lanark ffs.

I think it kind of depends on when you were born

In 20 years time when St. Johnstone are kicking about the lower leagues there will be a bunch of folk in their thirties who think they’re some kind of sleeping giant.

[HibeeJibee]

Every season people moan about the Premiership playoff, but the Premiership play 2 more games, and finish 2 weeks later.

There's actually very little difference between the run-in schedules - indeed 2nd play 1 game fewer, and 3rd & 4th 1 game more, than 11th:
 

             11th         2nd      3rd  4th

 

Weekend    Prem #34    Cham #35    Cham #35

Midweek

Weekend    Prem #35    Cham #36    Cham #36

Midweek                            PO QF 1L

Weekend    Prem #36                PO QF 2L

Midweek    Prem #37    PO SF 1L    PO SF 1L

Weekend    Prem #38    PO SF 2L    PO SF 2L

Midweek    PO Fn 1L    PO Fn 1L    PO Fn 1L

Weekend    PO Fn 2L    PO Fn 2L    PO Fn 2L

[Jmothecat2]

I think it kind of depends on when you were born

In 20 years time when St. Johnstone are kicking about the lower leagues there will be a bunch of folk in their thirties who think they’re some kind of sleeping giant.

There's definitely an element of that. When I first got into football St Johnstone were in the top flight, Dunfermline and Livingstone joined them soon after so to me they are 'big clubs', whilst teams like Morton aren't. Prejudiced by who was in the top flight my first few seasons going to games.

[tree house tam]

5 hours ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

 

In 20 years time when St. Johnstone are kicking about the lower leagues.
 

 

Aye, good one m8.

[pandarilla]

Every season people moan about the Premiership playoff, but the Premiership play 2 more games, and finish 2 weeks later.

There's actually very little difference between the run-in schedules - indeed 2nd play 1 game fewer, and 3rd & 4th 1 game more, than 11th:
 

             11th         2nd      3rd  4th

 

Weekend    Prem #34    Cham #35    Cham #35

Midweek

Weekend    Prem #35    Cham #36    Cham #36

Midweek                            PO QF 1L

Weekend    Prem #36                PO QF 2L

Midweek    Prem #37    PO SF 1L    PO SF 1L

Weekend    Prem #38    PO SF 2L    PO SF 2L

Midweek    PO Fn 1L    PO Fn 1L    PO Fn 1L

Weekend    PO Fn 2L    PO Fn 2L    PO Fn 2L

But quite often the last few games of the premiership season are meaningless and so players can be rested. That doesn't compare well with very tough playoff matches, coming thick and fast.

[Darren]

1 hour ago, pandarilla said:

4 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

Every season people moan about the Premiership playoff, but the Premiership play 2 more games, and finish 2 weeks later.

There's actually very little difference between the run-in schedules - indeed 2nd play 1 game fewer, and 3rd & 4th 1 game more, than 11th:
 

             11th         2nd      3rd  4th

 

Weekend    Prem #34    Cham #35    Cham #35

Midweek

Weekend    Prem #35    Cham #36    Cham #36

Midweek                            PO QF 1L

Weekend    Prem #36                PO QF 2L

Midweek    Prem #37    PO SF 1L    PO SF 1L

Weekend    Prem #38    PO SF 2L    PO SF 2L

Midweek    PO Fn 1L    PO Fn 1L    PO Fn 1L

Weekend    PO Fn 2L    PO Fn 2L    PO Fn 2L

But quite often the last few games of the premiership season are meaningless and so players can be rested. That doesn't compare well with very tough playoff matches, coming thick and fast.

I don't think the team who finishes 11th will have been playing "meaningless" matches or resting players. 

[pandarilla]

I don't think the team who finishes 11th will have been playing "meaningless" matches or resting players. 

Why not?


Has it not happened more than once in the last few seasons?

[mjw]

Why not?


Has it not happened more than once in the last few seasons?

We (Motherwell)had one meaningless game the year we were in the playoffs.

[oneteaminglasgow]

Why not?


Has it not happened more than once in the last few seasons?

Think for the most part it’s been 1 game at most.

Hibs didn’t have any when they went down, and I’m pretty sure Motherwell and Hamilton were only confirmed on game 37. Killie may well have had a couple of meaningless games.

[RandomGuy.]

1 hour ago, pandarilla said:

5 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

Every season people moan about the Premiership playoff, but the Premiership play 2 more games, and finish 2 weeks later.

There's actually very little difference between the run-in schedules - indeed 2nd play 1 game fewer, and 3rd & 4th 1 game more, than 11th:
 

             11th         2nd      3rd  4th

 

Weekend    Prem #34    Cham #35    Cham #35

Midweek

Weekend    Prem #35    Cham #36    Cham #36

Midweek                            PO QF 1L

Weekend    Prem #36                PO QF 2L

Midweek    Prem #37    PO SF 1L    PO SF 1L

Weekend    Prem #38    PO SF 2L    PO SF 2L

Midweek    PO Fn 1L    PO Fn 1L    PO Fn 1L

Weekend    PO Fn 2L    PO Fn 2L    PO Fn 2L

But quite often the last few games of the premiership season are meaningless and so players can be rested. That doesn't compare well with very tough playoff matches, coming thick and fast.

How would you change it then? 

[Fifespud]

I think it kind of depends on when you were born

In 20 years time when St. Johnstone are kicking about the lower leagues there will be a bunch of folk in their thirties who think they’re some kind of sleeping giant.

I like you TC.

[pandarilla]

We (Motherwell)had one meaningless game the year we were in the playoffs.

Think for the most part it’s been 1 game at most.

Hibs didn’t have any when they went down, and I’m pretty sure Motherwell and Hamilton were only confirmed on game 37. Killie may well have had a couple of meaningless games.

Even one game can be a pretty big advantage in the run up to such a huge fixture.

As for how is change it, I'm not entirely sure. I'd have to look in more detail but if the extra premiership games do come at the end of the season then it makes it pretty complicated.

[Dunning1874]

11 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

Why not?


Has it not happened more than once in the last few seasons?

 

Since they were introduced:

Hibs could still have finished above 11th going into the last game

Motherwell were confirmed as 11th with one game remaining

Kilmarnock confirmed 11th with two games remaining

Hamilton could still finish bottom going into the last game

It's hardly a massive advantage. You could argue that it's unfair on a 3rd/4th placed side that makes the final as they play three consecutive midweeks, but for me they don't have any grounds to complain when they've been given a shot at getting promoted in the first place after finishing mid table.

[pandarilla]

Since they were introduced:
Hibs could still have finished above 11th going into the last game
Motherwell were confirmed as 11th with one game remaining
Kilmarnock confirmed 11th with two games remaining
Hamilton could still finish bottom going into the last game
It's hardly a massive advantage. You could argue that it's unfair on a 3rd/4th placed side that makes the final as they play three consecutive midweeks, but for me they don't have any grounds to complain when they've been given a shot at getting promoted in the first place after finishing mid table.

OK I agree, and so fully retract the term 'massive'.

But any advantage is difficult to go along with in these circumstances.

Also, finishing 3rd from 10 is not mid table. And surely having a pop at them when the slight advantage often goes to a team that finishes 11th from 12 is a bit rich.

[Monkey Tennis]

5 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

Every season people moan about the Premiership playoff, but the Premiership play 2 more games, and finish 2 weeks later.

There's actually very little difference between the run-in schedules - indeed 2nd play 1 game fewer, and 3rd & 4th 1 game more, than 11th:
 

             11th         2nd      3rd  4th

 

Weekend    Prem #34    Cham #35    Cham #35

Midweek

Weekend    Prem #35    Cham #36    Cham #36

Midweek                            PO QF 1L

Weekend    Prem #36                PO QF 2L

Midweek    Prem #37    PO SF 1L    PO SF 1L

Weekend    Prem #38    PO SF 2L    PO SF 2L

Midweek    PO Fn 1L    PO Fn 1L    PO Fn 1L

Weekend    PO Fn 2L    PO Fn 2L    PO Fn 2L

Any debate should properly focus not on the number of games, but on the fact that the top flight club immediately qualifies for the final of a knockout tournament in a way that doesn't happen for second bottom in the two divisions directly beneath.

[HibeeJibee]

2 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Any debate should properly focus not on the number of games, but on the fact that the top flight club immediately qualifies for the final of a knockout tournament in a way that doesn't happen for second bottom in the two divisions directly beneath.

... but an important reason for them qualifying straight for the final is the number of games etc.?

Incidentally:
* 11th plays 40 games (38 league + 2 playoff)
* 2nd would play 40 games (36 league + 4 playoff)
* 3rd/4th would play 42 games (36 league + 6 playoff)
yet no-one proposes scrapping QF + excluding 4th + ending Championship week later.

Edited March 25, 2018 by HibeeJibee