The Arbroath Thread

[parsforlife]

2 hours ago, 1320Lichtie said:

A lot of good points Skyline

 

Yes we will get relegated at some point but hopefully the foundations are in place to make ventures back into this league a lot more often than we did before 

No we will not always be the best part time team but again off the park I think as a part time club you’d find it hard to better what we’re doing and have put in place recently.

We have no reason to fear any PT club going forward I think we are currently the benchmark and the growth over the last few years since the new board have come in are exemplary. They couldn’t have got it more right. On the field success has obviously allowed for a lot of the work that’s been done off the park 

Yes Dick is a great manager. Nouble and Low are great players and we are extremely lucky right now. DC especially is irreplaceable

 

Players will strive for FT when younger but when career maybe does not go as planned or job opportunities come up away from football we will be in a great position to pick these guys up 

 

All of that is true. 

The PT/FT debate only really matters to a handful of clubs,  for most there is only one obvious choice.  Arbroath may actually enter that group in the nearish future if their recent success on and off the field keep up.  Ultimately there are no prizes for being the best PT team. League placings don't care.

 

If funding became available it would be interesting if you guy's started to no longer being content with what you have achieved and started to wonder if being a championship team most years with play-off potential when it goes right was achievable,  and that likely means going FT.

[TxRover]

The other thought I have with regard to FT/PT would be looking at loans. For instance, a FT loanee out to a PT side is almost certainly practicing/working out several times a week with their home side (and even FT teams loanees are sometimes practicing with their home sides instead of the loan sides). That made me wonder a bit about a player like Nouble, given the distance between the two clubs. It seems in this case, some accommodation has been reached, but I would expect that a PT team being located reasonably close to the loaning club would be an advantage…and perhaps a limit on options?

[Lichtie78]

The other thought I have with regard to FT/PT would be looking at loans. For instance, a FT loanee out to a PT side is almost certainly practicing/working out several times a week with their home side (and even FT teams loanees are sometimes practicing with their home sides instead of the loan sides). That made me wonder a bit about a player like Nouble, given the distance between the two clubs. It seems in this case, some accommodation has been reached, but I would expect that a PT team being located reasonably close to the loaning club would be an advantage…and perhaps a limit on options?

We train in Perth so not too far for any central belt based loanee to travel.

[Skyline Drifter]

6 hours ago, TxRover said:

The other thought I have with regard to FT/PT would be looking at loans. For instance, a FT loanee out to a PT side is almost certainly practicing/working out several times a week with their home side (and even FT teams loanees are sometimes practicing with their home sides instead of the loan sides). That made me wonder a bit about a player like Nouble, given the distance between the two clubs. It seems in this case, some accommodation has been reached, but I would expect that a PT team being located reasonably close to the loaning club would be an advantage…and perhaps a limit on options?

Meh, I think this argument about loan players is a red herring. This is Scotland, not the US, nobody's hundreds of miles apart. It's 250 miles maximum club to club. Livingston to Arbroath is an hour and a half in a car if he even stays in Livingston (and as pointed out above Arbroath train in Perth so only 30 - 45 mins to training). The vast majority of players in Scotland stay in the Central Belt regardless of who they play for. If a player lives in Glasgow it matters not if they travel to train in Annan a couple of times a week and Dundee another couple. In my experience the Premiership clubs generally are happier for a player going out on loan to go out 'properly' and not faff about training with two different clubs. It might be there is the odd exception like Nouble who is new to his parent club too and they want to keep a direct eye on him to see how he's doing and keep him involved with their own group too, but generally for younger players they already developed themselves through their system and know well, if they can't feature for their own first team they don't want them training with them either. It's perfectly possible to have a full time to full time loan where the player trains a day or two with the parent club anyway if they so wish. Robby McCrorie trained with Rangers every Monday when he was with us. It's a specialist position and Rangers wanted their own GK coaches to continue working with him weekly. Otherwise nobody's ever wanted their player to train with them part of the week when they go on loan.

There may be an element of truth in your comment as regards the Highland clubs perhaps. I'm sure it's easier for Highland based young players to be put out on loan to Elgin and Highland league clubs than sent elsewhere in the SPFL for County and Inverness. It might be more convenient for young Aberdeen players to head to Cove or one of the Angus clubs. Otherwise I doubt it matters as long as the player drives.

11 hours ago, parsforlife said:

The PT/FT debate only really matters to a handful of clubs,  for most there is only one obvious choice.  Arbroath may actually enter that group in the nearish future if their recent success on and off the field keep up.  Ultimately there are no prizes for being the best PT team. League placings don't care.

If funding became available it would be interesting if you guy's started to no longer being content with what you have achieved and started to wonder if being a championship team most years with play-off potential when it goes right was achievable,  and that likely means going FT.

Yeah, that was really the crux of my point. Arbroath can be as well run and superbly managed as they like but ultimately, as long as they remain part time, they will eventually trend to a relatively median part time position, which is outside the Championship. If they want to establish themselves in the longer term as a Championship level side (and I'm certainly not saying they can't do that) then they'll need to do what ourselves and Ayr United in the last couple of decades, and Queen's Park last year, have done and go full time. That doesn't mean they can't be relegated either, as we have been and no doubt will be again and Ayr were within a whisker of being last season. It's highly likely unless Arbroath completely collapse that at least one, perhaps two, full time sides will go down this year. In general though, a reasonably well run full time side should be able to just about hang about the Championship more often than not with the current numbers. Of course, Queen's Park and Falkirk (& potentially Airdrie) hovering about in the division below means that there's going to be at least one or two full time sides outside the top two divisions at any time. It's only going to get harder for a part time side to get to the Championship and stay there.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Skyline Drifter

[vikingTON]

If Arbroath continue to comfortably outperform the glorified Herbalife jobbers that 'full-time' clubs are now attracting in the bottom half of the league, then the shift will be to at least a hybrid model among more clubs. 

The rationale for an entirely full-time setup is different to what it was when Morton went full-time nearly 20 years ago. The spread of daft moneybags clubs* is increasing and so there are diminishing returns from attracting better players in the transfer market. The fitness and condition of part-time players is a world away from some of the puffing messes that littered the old Second and Third Divisions. 

Falkirk may win promotion sometime this decade and a handful of full-time vanity projects like QP will make their appearance, but I expect the general trend to be towards less formal professionalisation in the medium term (10 yearrs' time). I'd be very surprised if Greenock Morton are not at least a hybrid full/part time model in five years' time, as the current model is demonstrably rubbish and unsustainable under fan ownership as well. 

 

 

 

 

* Ourselves and Gretna only back then. 

Edited November 11, 2021 by vikingTON

[RedLichtie86]

If Arbroath continue to comfortably outperform the glorified Herbalife jobbers that 'full-time' clubs are now attracting in the bottom half of the league, then the shift will be to at least a hybrid model among more clubs. 
The rationale for an entirely full-time setup is different to what it was when Morton went full-time nearly 20 years ago. The spread of daft moneybags clubs* is increasing and so there are diminishing returns from attracting better players in the transfer market. The fitness and condition of part-time players is a world away from some of the puffing messes that littered the old Second and Third Divisions. 
Falkirk may win promotion sometime this decade and a handful of full-time vanity projects like QP will make their appearance, but I expect the general trend to be towards less formal professionalisation in the medium term (10 yearrs' time). I'd be very surprised if Greenock Morton are not at least a hybrid full/part time model in five years' time, as the current model is demonstrably rubbish and unsustainable under fan ownership as well. 
 
 
 
 
* Ourselves and Gretna only back then. 

f**k i mind years ago, before the SPL/SFL merger, you were on the forums greetin' that 'full time' clubs like Morton deserved more money from the SPL.

You practically had your begging bowl out like Oliver Twist. You need more money so you can stay 'full time'. That you were an ambitious side. Not a diddy.

The sort of patter you spew out along the lines of - f**k the part time teams they dont deserve anything as they are not ambitious clubs. Off to the seaside leagues you go. Diddies. Etc etc.

The utter distain you have for part time clubs is for all to see over the years on these forums.

So for you to come in this forum and talk of clubs using hybrid models, full time being unsustainable for clubs like Morton, calling some full time clubs 'glorified Herbalife jobbers' .... it fucking warms my heart.

Now off you pop back to the Morton forum ya helmet.

[vikingTON]

Full-time football was not sustainable under the old SFL and if you think that an entire second tier of part-time teams is in the best interests of Scottish football then you are deluded. 

The current deal makes it sustainable if you finish high enough in the league, but that's just pushing the gambler's dilemma down to the second tier rather than 'winning promotion to the top flight' where it used to sit. Which is a clear improvement and makes it far less likely that clubs will go bust chasing one promotion spot every season. Below this point, there was and always will be a mix of competing models. 

Thanks for playing anyway champ. 

[Seeker]

I’m just happy at the moment.

Whatever happens in the future I’ll support Arbroath.

[1320Lichtie]

2 hours ago, RedLichtie86 said:

 

 

f**k i mind years ago, before the SPL/SFL merger, you were on the forums greetin' that 'full time' clubs like Morton deserved more money from the SPL.

You practically had your begging bowl out like Oliver Twist. You need more money so you can stay 'full time'. That you were an ambitious side. Not a diddy.

The sort of patter you spew out along the lines of - f**k the part time teams they dont deserve anything as they are not ambitious clubs. Off to the seaside leagues you go. Diddies. Etc etc.

The utter distain you have for part time clubs is for all to see over the years on these forums.

So for you to come in this forum and talk of clubs using hybrid models, full time being unsustainable for clubs like Morton, calling some full time clubs 'glorified Herbalife jobbers' .... it fucking warms my heart.

Now off you pop back to the Morton forum ya helmet.

 

Bit aggressive mate.... he made some good points 

 

The seaside league stuff is just banter too

[TxRover]

4 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

It's perfectly possible to have a full time to full time loan where the player trains a day or two with the parent club anyway if they so wish.

Yep, Dylan Tait is doing so at Raith, as Hibs want him to slide into their training system smoothly.

 

I recognize the travel distances are shorter in Scotland, but the times aren’t quite as short, hence my wondering about Nouble. The point about Highland clubs is more what I was thinking, but the apparent improvements in Central Belt infrastructure seem to be relevant here.

Edited November 11, 2021 by TxRover

[lichtie23]

Nouble trains 3 days with Livingston and 2 nights with us. As does Harrison Clark 

[DUAFC]

8 hours ago, RedLichtie86 said:

Now off you pop back to the Morton forum ya helmet.

 

Just got it......ya helmet - as in Viking Helmet.

Priceless

[SotesBornalichtie]

On 09/11/2021 at 15:29, SotesBornalichtie said:

He would be a good signing for us if Hearts do release him, but he would probably hope that a full time club would sign him.  

 

When I posted this it was just an opinion on what may or may not happen regarding Chris Hamilton at the end of the season.

It seems to have grown arms and legs since then. Still it's great to see so many discussions about the relative pros and cons of part time/ full time football, with a lot of valid points for both being made. And virtually no slagging off between posters.

 

[farflung lichtie]

Informative discussion and a lot of factors are involved.  Without being too determinist/ just stating the bleeding obvious, it used to be local population catchment (hence economic base) that would give the likeliest indicator of ranking in the league (yes hugely overgeneralised).  Arbroath are around 25/30 largest settlement in Scotland which would mean competing between tiers 2 and 3 on a long term average.  Then of course, dodgy money and sugar daddies entered so upended that formula but I’d still expect longerterm the population-economic predictor to hold sway.   

Now , after 4-5 decades in the relative wilderness, Arbroath have been enjoying a period in the sun (all the sweeter for being in the shade so long) but would seriously question whether a consideration of going FT is sensible,   The club has shown ambition (a commercial director!, community trust etc) but faces the same basic limits to growth.  The current management and playing squad will also evolve and bigger clubs in our league and the one below have struggled when setbacks strike.  So the retreat  from the sunny uplands seems inevitable sooner or hopefully later.  No club, company, charity can really stand still  - its vital to stay afloat and seek to thrive recognising competitors are often doing the same..  Hence maybe necessary to keep the longerterm realities in mind (eg avoid excessive debt) in terms of club setup and commitments so there is a stable future.  Unless a sugardaddy out there pumps in funny money so we add a National honour maybe Scottish or League Cup title to our Qualifying Cup triumph a mere 110 years ago.

[stan3600]

I had the notion that we’d get experienced players who dropped out of FT football, but it’s interesting to look at our players’ backgrounds. (Corrections welcomed). Of the squad of 18 last Saturday -

3 moved to part time after a full time career (Gaston, Craigen, Swankie)
9 were with FT teams as teenagers but never made it with them (Donnelly, Colin Hamilton, Little, McKenna, Antell, Gold, Henderson, Hilson, Linn)
2 have never been full time (O’Brien, Stewart)
4 are on loan

[stan3600]

I had the notion that we’d get experienced players who dropped out of FT football, but it’s interesting to look at our players’ backgrounds. (Corrections welcomed). Of the squad of 18 last Saturday -

3 moved to part time after a full time career (Gaston, Craigen, Swankie)
9 were with FT teams as teenagers but never made it with them (Donnelly, Colin Hamilton, Little, McKenna, Antell, Gold, Henderson, Hilson, Linn)
2 have never been full time (O’Brien, Stewart)
4 are on loan

You can add Jason Thomson and Nicky Low to the experienced players who moved from FT to PT, so a bit more balanced.

[AFC360PUNK1320]

Does anybody know where the majestic Pongo McCord and quality pro Kris Doolan are playing their fitba just now?

 

C'Mon the Red Lichties 36-0.

Edited November 13, 2021 by AFC360PUNK1320

[1320Lichtie]

52 minutes ago, AFC360PUNK1320 said:

Does anybody know where the majestic Pongo McCord and quality pro Kris Doolan are playing their fitba just now?

 

C'Mon the Red Lichties 36-0.

McCord is at Lochee Harp I think with his brother 
 

Doolan as far as I can see not signed for anyone 

[afc_36_0]

McCord is at Lochee Harp I think with his brother 
 
Doolan as far as I can see not signed for anyone 

I thought the mccord’s were at broughty but either way its a shame he’s only playing junior. It became apparent in his last year or so with us that football wasn’t his priority, massively talented player too.

[Lichtie78]

I thought the mccord’s were at broughty but either way its a shame he’s only playing junior. It became apparent in his last year or so with us that football wasn’t his priority, massively talented player too.

Pongo was at broughty earlier in the season but moved to Lochee Harp with his brother