All things Dundee FC

[Dee Bliss]

The board have done exactly what they should’ve done with McPake the last time we got promoted. Lessons have been learned

[Molotov]

11 minutes ago, Peil said:

Simply, there isn't any FFP at club level in Scotland, it only kicks in for Euro qualification.  I could throw millions at Ayr if I had it, as long as I accepted they'd never get into Europe if they did actually win something.

But I don’t understand this as that never stopped Rangers playing in Europe.

Surely after the fiascos of the last 30 years (and more) the SFA, the SPFL and the clubs would see that this is 

a) unsustainable 

b) financially cheating 

Any sporting integrity goes straight out the window. 

Unless we learn from the past then we will continue to see clubs go to the wall in a “boom and bust” scenario. 

Rangers and Gretna and numerous other clubs cheated their way to “success” to a varying degree. 

Not only that but club employees were made redundant and businesses associated with those clubs lost thousands of pounds. 

I guess this is not the thread.

As I said before really happy for Dundee to be back in top flight. 

Sorry to derail Dees!

Bring back Caniggia!

[jagfox]

1 hour ago, Derry Alli said:

Pretty sure a 12 month rolling contract just means every day you go in you now have 12months left. He'd have to be paid off, you'd imagine he'd gladly accept 3/4 months severance and gone to Pleasureland for the weekend.

There's usually a date a month or so before the anniversary of the appointnent/ contract srarting, where either party can choose to not continue the deal. 

Actually quite rare for the 12 month rolling contract.  

[K.T]

Maybe clutching at straws here but do we not have a head of recruitment? If Davidson is hired we won’t be reliant on him identifying and signing players, although I suppose he will have the final say. I have no idea how Davidson is as a coach though. 

[AFC360PUNK1320]

Just like to congratulate Dundee FC on winning the Championship League Title.

I have a few Dees fans as mates.

Smokies & Wine, 36-0.

Thank you. 

[Ludo*1]

30 minutes ago, K.T said:

Maybe clutching at straws here but do we not have a head of recruitment? If Davidson is hired we won’t be reliant on him identifying and signing players, although I suppose he will have the final say. I have no idea how Davidson is as a coach though. 

We have Gary Ogilvie as a main scout/identifier of talent. I'm pretty sure most clubs have a bigger team on that front than we do though which is usually reliant on mainly the manager. One of the St J fans can confirm if that's the case during Davidson's time at St Johnstone. @Kyle @RandomGuy.

[Widge]

27 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said:

We have Gary Ogilvie as a main scout/identifier of talent. I'm pretty sure most clubs have a bigger team on that front than we do though which is usually reliant on mainly the manager. One of the St J fans can confirm if that's the case during Davidson's time at St Johnstone. @Kyle @RandomGuy.

He had a head of recruitment at saints, they didn't get on or see eye to eye about anything and he was binned with Davidson then relying on players who he either knew or agents mentioned to him. He's not capable of recruiting at all, but equally he's too stubborn to accept help on that front and he will always want the final say.

 

[Kyle]

47 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said:

We have Gary Ogilvie as a main scout/identifier of talent. I'm pretty sure most clubs have a bigger team on that front than we do though which is usually reliant on mainly the manager. One of the St J fans can confirm if that's the case during Davidson's time at St Johnstone. @Kyle @RandomGuy.

Davidson had people helping him with transfers but ultimately he made the final calls on players we signed. His recruitment - with and without the head of recruitment - was terrible. The Terrace did a series podcast on Davidson's time in charge and the two best signings identified were Guy Melamed - who must've played about 15 games and was immediately dropped as soon as there was an excuse to do so - and Danny McNamara who was on loan for a few months, left and we immediately looked a more complete unit with Rooney in the side. I wouldn't trust him to make the right choices in the market.

I really didn't like Davidson as a manager and wasn't particularly fond of what I heard about him as a person so I'm probably not the best person to give a balanced view on him, but he strikes me as an excellent coach and a terrible manager. If you're going to run with a head coach/director of football model it might work a bit better, but Davidson's tactics are so rigid that it'll likely work alright until teams work out the shape and then he'll stubbornly stick with it thereafter.

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by Kyle

[Der Panzer]

Young Arab sadly passed away this week in tragic and unexpected circumstances - believe I saw some supporters pages planning a minutes applause etc.

There is also a gofundme page set up to support his family which I’m really only posting to provide a link to should anyone wish to contribute. 

https://www.gofundme.com/f/in-memory-of-jack-stewart?utm_campaign=p_cf+share-flow-1&utm_content=undefined&utm_medium=copy_link&utm_source=customer&utm_term=undefined

[RandomGuy.]

5 hours ago, Ludo*1 said:

We have Gary Ogilvie as a main scout/identifier of talent. I'm pretty sure most clubs have a bigger team on that front than we do though which is usually reliant on mainly the manager. One of the St J fans can confirm if that's the case during Davidson's time at St Johnstone. @Kyle @RandomGuy.

Its a long one so ill spoiler it.

Spoiler

I think he was left to pretty much do all the scouting/signing when he first joined, just as TW did.

Its why he seemed to go for experienced proven players (Conway/Bryson) and Millwall loanees (Olaofe/McNamara). Of those four, three were successes, while Olaofe just couldnt get in the team but has shown quality in England.

Added Melamed based on video, after asking an agency to find a striker, and left him out the team for months before finally playing him and he was sensational.

2nd season is where it fell apart. Folk go on about the sales of Kerr/McCann screwing him over, but it was agreed for a while before Kerr left that he could go once we were out of Europe and Davidson thought Hayden Muller (Millwall loanee) could replace him. McCann was the big one but again, Davidson agreed to sell him and wanted Cammy MacPherson as a replacement. A lack of ambition to improve the squad led to us scrambling about for loan players at the end of the window and we ended up with a mixed bag. Muller struggling at RCB saw us sign another in Lars Dendoncker, without him being watched, based on the word of David Weir. He struggled so Efe Ambrose was then signed a few months later. He also failed and left just months later.

By the end of the season he had tried to replace Kerr 5 times. Finally got a decent one in Cleary, then when he left he signed another 2 players (Mitchell (Millwall loanee) and Ryan McGowan) to play that role, and neither played it the way his system needed. So all in he had 6 failed attempts to solve one position.

That January was the first where he worked with a HOR, we signed 10 in a scattergun attempt to rebuild a squad staring at relegation, most of whom are gone or were frozen out by Davidson. Very much felt, looking at the signings, like both were signing players. 

This past Summer he was on his own again and signed a lot of good players. Most have contributed something and im not sure any are really "failures". His issue was he didnt actually know how to use these good players, while also stockpiling ones who were too similar to all fit in. Led to us having David Wotherspoon, Ali Crawford, Jamie Murphy and Graham Carey all on the bench watching Stevie May and Connor McLennan chase long balls. Just a complete waste of money.

Barely anything was done in January, which was needed tbh (we'd signed over 30 players in 18 months), but a few left. One, a £100k signing who'd played about 100 minutes, quoted as saying he had made to feel like an outcast and had barely been spoken to by the manager in his 12 months with us. A month or two later a second player said similar, and hadnt been contacted at all during his loan spell by the manager.

All in its a mixed bag. His order of preference in terms of building a squas seems to be...

1. Over 30s, proven experienced players - His preference, and they do well generally. He'll overpay and overcommit to them.

2. Millwall loanees - Relies on this to beef up the squad. Presumably based entirely on Gary Rowetts recommendations. Will give them more chances than your own youth players.

3. Younger Scottish players he remembers from years ago - Both MacPherson and Rudden signed based on showing potential at a younger age, rather than what they are like now.

4. Punts based on agent recommendations -  Pot luck. For every Dan Phillips and Guy Melamed you get a Viv Solomon-Otabor and Jahmal Hector-Ingram. He seems to sign them regardless then decide.

5. Your own youth players - Not to be trusted until they're 23yo+ with multiple loan spells at a lower level, unless in emergencies or for final 10 minutes of dead rubber. Max Kucheriavyi is twice the player Ali Crawford is yet got dumped in the stand then papped off on loan to Falkirk simply because hes young.

He spent more over his tenure than Wright, McInnes and Coyle combined, and its highly likely that extends way back to the 90s too. If you include wages then it almost definitely will. One of the best backed managers we've ever had in terms of spending power and freedom to target who he wanted. Even a few months back we were bidding £100k for Jordan White, while having 6 senior strikers already on the books.

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by RandomGuy.

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

FFS.

Thank you.

[Juantwothree]

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

Its a long one so ill spoiler it.

  Hide contents

I think he was left to pretty much do all the scouting/signing when he first joined, just as TW did.

Its why he seemed to go for experienced proven players (Conway/Bryson) and Millwall loanees (Olaofe/McNamara). Of those four, three were successes, while Olaofe just couldnt get in the team but has shown quality in England.

Added Melamed based on video, after asking an agency to find a striker, and left him out the team for months before finally playing him and he was sensational.

2nd season is where it fell apart. Folk go on about the sales of Kerr/McCann screwing him over, but it was agreed for a while before Kerr left that he could go once we were out of Europe and Davidson thought Hayden Muller (Millwall loanee) could replace him. McCann was the big one but again, Davidson agreed to sell him and wanted Cammy MacPherson as a replacement. A lack of ambition to improve the squad led to us scrambling about for loan players at the end of the window and we ended up with a mixed bag. Muller struggling at RCB saw us sign another in Lars Dendoncker, without him being watched, based on the word of David Weir. He struggled so Efe Ambrose was then signed a few months later. He also failed and left just months later.

By the end of the season he had tried to replace Kerr 5 times. Finally got a decent one in Cleary, then when he left he signed another 2 players (Mitchell (Millwall loanee) and Ryan McGowan) to play that role, and neither played it the way his system needed. So all in he had 6 failed attempts to solve one position.

That January was the first where he worked with a HOR, we signed 10 in a scattergun attempt to rebuild a squad staring at relegation, most of whom are gone or were frozen out by Davidson. Very much felt, looking at the signings, like both were signing players. 

This past Summer he was on his own again and signed a lot of good players. Most have contributed something and im not sure any are really "failures". His issue was he didnt actually know how to use these good players, while also stockpiling ones who were too similar to all fit in. Led to us having David Wotherspoon, Ali Crawford, Jamie Murphy and Graham Carey all on the bench watching Stevie May and Connor McLennan chase long balls. Just a complete waste of money.

Barely anything was done in January, which was needed tbh (we'd signed over 30 players in 18 months), but a few left. One, a £100k signing who'd played about 100 minutes, quoted as saying he had made to feel like an outcast and had barely been spoken to by the manager in his 12 months with us. A month or two later a second player said similar, and hadnt been contacted at all during his loan spell by the manager.

All in its a mixed bag. His order of preference in terms of building a squas seems to be...

1. Over 30s, proven experienced players - His preference, and they do well generally. He'll overpay and overcommit to them.

2. Millwall loanees - Relies on this to beef up the squad. Presumably based entirely on Gary Rowetts recommendations. Will give them more chances than your own youth players.

3. Younger Scottish players he remembers from years ago - Both MacPherson and Rudden signed based on showing potential at a younger age, rather than what they are like now.

4. Punts based on agent recommendations -  Pot luck. For every Dan Phillips and Guy Melamed you get a Viv Solomon-Otabor and Jahmal Hector-Ingram. He seems to sign them regardless then decide.

5. Your own youth players - Not to be trusted until they're 23yo+ with multiple loan spells at a lower level, unless in emergencies or for final 10 minutes of dead rubber. Max Kucheriavyi is twice the player Ali Crawford is yet got dumped in the stand then papped off on loan to Falkirk simply because hes young.

He spent more over his tenure than Wright, McInnes and Coyle combined, and its highly likely that extends way back to the 90s too. If you include wages then it almost definitely will. One of the best backed managers we've ever had in terms of spending power and freedom to target who he wanted. Even a few months back we were bidding £100k for Jordan White, while having 6 senior strikers already on the books.

 

Yikes

[Ludo*1]

 

[RossBFaeDundee]

lol, never trust that Pete O'Rourke guy

[RossBFaeDundee]

Gary Bowyer's official statement. Thanks everyone including Keyes, aside from you-know-who.

https://leaguemanagers.com/news/lma-latest/gary-bowyer-statement/

Quote

Firstly, may I take this opportunity to say what a huge honour and a privilege it has been to be manager of Dundee Football Club. Thank you to Tim Keyes the chairman and the rest of the board.
 
"I am saddened and disappointed not to have the chance to lead the team in the Scottish Premiership next season. I have loved my time at Dundee and was excited at the prospect of breaking into the top 6. I will miss living in ‘the ferry’ and Scotland, which is such a beautiful country.
 
"Winning the Championship last Friday was an incredible night and to also be named Championship Manager of the Season was very humbling. I undoubtedly share both achievements with my staff and players who worked hard and showed great skill and determination to achieve promotion at the first time of asking.
 
"There are many people I want to thank for making my time with Dundee a success…
 
"My wife and family, for all their love and support and the sacrifices they made to make this work for us all. I know they loved their time up here as much as I did and were made to feel very welcome by the people of Dundee.
 
"To my assistant Billy Barr, what a fantastic, incredibly loyal and brilliant person you are. We shared so many emotions throughout the year and I could not have achieved this without your unwavering support. Top man.
 
"Moving to a new country has been a fabulous experience. The transition was made that much easier by the efforts of my coaching team of Scott Paterson, Alan Combe, Matty Castle, Macauley Kenney, Bruce Smith and Gary Ogilvie. Thank you all for your incredible work, great knowledge and input. I loved your company and you all played a massive part in us winning the league.
 
"To the players thank you for all your hard work and buying into our way of working. The appetite you showed on a daily basis was outstanding and as a result you were rewarded by being crowned Champions.
 
"Finally to the magnificent supporters, wow, wow, wow. The celebrations on Friday night, the civic reception at the weekend and the reception you gave me on the awards evening will live with me forever. From day one you took me in and we built a special relationship. Your passion for your team is incredible, please continue to give that support to those players in dark blue. I will miss celebrating with you all at the end of the games.
 
"Thank you for the memories it’s been an unbelievable season".
 
C’mon the Dee
Gary Bowyer

[Ludo*1]

13 minutes ago, RossBFaeDundee said:

Gary Bowyer's official statement. Thanks everyone including Keyes, aside from you-know-who.

https://leaguemanagers.com/news/lma-latest/gary-bowyer-statement/

No mention of Strachan or Nelms. At least Nelms got a token, 'and the rest of the board' which is probably a dig in itself towards Nelms not mentioning Bowyer.

Surprised at Strachan not being mentioned.

[Pens_Dark]

Fucking hell this is all so messy.

Bowyer not even given the opportunity to release a statement on the official page before being shown the door. Nelms clearly couldn't wait long enough.

Can't help but feel sorry for Bowyer here. Yes we scraped back into the premiership by the skin of our teeth, yes it wasn't convincing and yes I would have been calling for his head had it not happened...but this is really an undignified exit that a promotion winning manager doesn't deserve.

[Lalo]

9 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said:

No mention of Strachan or Nelms. At least Nelms got a token, 'and the rest of the board' which is probably a dig in itself towards Nelms not mentioning Bowyer.

Surprised at Strachan not being mentioned.

Strachan not being mentioned definitely tells a story, imo. Honestly I canna believe the mess of this whole thing, only Dundee can have you feeling how we felt at the weekend to how we feel now. 

[johnnydun]

Apart from 'knowledge' of the Scottish game and possibly some contacts for Nelms and Keyes, I'm a bit confused with what WGS is bringing officialy anymore.

I have a sneaky suspicion, pretty much cemented by what I read yesterday, that he pretty much picks the players for the squad.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

1 hour ago, johnnydun said:

Apart from 'knowledge' of the Scottish game and possibly some contacts for Nelms and Keyes, I'm a bit confused with what WGS is bringing officialy anymore.

I have a sneaky suspicion, pretty much cemented by what I read yesterday, that he pretty much picks the players for the squad.

Strachan is a fucking dinosaur who should be nowhere near a football team.

Anyone who thinks Mark McGhee is a good caretaker manager needs their head examined.