harry94 Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 To be fair, what could have reasonably been expected today? This is pretty much what was promised but at the time, words were spinned differently. Does anyone actually know someone who voted know because they were promised what was basically an independent parliament? You'd have to be an absolute moron to believe that we could stay in the UK and overnight decide to pick and choose what we want. Let's see how the Scottish Government handle these powers over the next few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taza Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 To be fair, what could have reasonably been expected today? This is pretty much what was promised but at the time, words were spinned differently. Does anyone actually know someone who voted know because they were promised what was basically an independent parliament? You'd have to be an absolute moron to believe that we could stay in the UK and overnight decide to pick and choose what we want. Let's see how the Scottish Government handle these powers over the next few years. Handle what powers? The road-signs? They certainly won't be raising income tax. What a waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaikuHibee Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 Handle what powers? The road-signs? They certainly won't be raising income tax. What a waste of time. Tories don't think so. You see, we must blame ourselves... not austerians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 Nationalist filibuster, not surprising at all. Most of the want independence for the sake of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecto Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 No matter what came out of the "commission", it was never going to be enough for the party who are only interested in full independence, so no surprise in their response Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry94 Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 Aye, just one problem Harry. We're still waiting for them to deliver powers that can actually make a difference in Scotland. These powers can't and Westminster knows they can't. This devolution proposal won't change anything in Scotland, it can't. They undoubtedly do make a difference though; your definition of 'difference' is vague. My point is that we've had the Scotland Act 2012 that will come into effect at the next parliament. This will give borrowing powers that we've not had before. Smith commission (IF passed) will give air passenger duty, control over work programme and further powers on income tax on top of the Scotland Act. The big let down is how unsubstantive welfare powers are. We have to remember that the Scottish Parliament is relatively young and it's not really common practice to transfer massive powers that quickly. If we wanted to do that then the only way was independence. For the record, I believe that the best arrangement for Scotland would be as an independent nation and I did vote 'Yes' in September (and was pretty vocal about it). However, we know what a 'No' vote means and I'm not really going to react negatively to an arrangement which will be better than we have now. There's an 'independence at all costs' mentality that's creeping into my Facebook feed and it really isn't helping. A minority that behaves like that will not become a majority any time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaikuHibee Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 They undoubtedly do make a difference though; your definition of 'difference' is vague. The one thing they change. Type of Scot bashing down South. And a budget cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taza Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 No they don't. Whatever Scotland raises under the current proposals will be cut from the formula. So we're effectively stuck with the same budget as before (which is due to be cut by 8 billion over the next 2 years). Scotland needs full devolution over fund raising powers and the formula method scrapped. It's the only way Scotland can ever benefit. Everything else is smoke screens and mirrors. Absolutely, like if Holyrood scraps APD, it has to compensate English Airports for lost business Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamaldo Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 The reaction here is pretty hysterical to be honest. I think some people genuinely believed we were going to get powers over everything bar defence and foreign affairs. That was never going to happen. Sturgeon said at the start that she wouldn't get everything she wanted because she wants total independence. I think she might be playing a clever game here though, because although I think she'll have a good idea how to utilise these new powers (however small they may be), she knows that she has to keep beating the drum and saying it's nowhere near enough. If she started saying, "This is great news and we're fully satisfied with the report from the Commission", then the dream of independence would have just died on it's arse there and then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1320Lichtie Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 To be fair, what could have reasonably been expected today? This is pretty much what was promised but at the time, words were spinned differently. Does anyone actually know someone who voted know because they were promised what was basically an independent parliament? You'd have to be an absolute moron to believe that we could stay in the UK and overnight decide to pick and choose what we want. Let's see how the Scottish Government handle these powers over the next few years. Plenty of folk... 'Aye but we will get more powers so we don't need to risk leaving the security of the UK' was a very popular line in my experience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry94 Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 No they don't. Whatever Scotland raises under the current proposals will be cut from the formula. So we're effectively stuck with the same budget as before (which is due to be cut by 8 billion over the next 2 years). Scotland needs full devolution over fund raising powers and the formula method scrapped. It's the only way Scotland can ever benefit. Everything else is smoke screens and mirrors. I agree with you but it has made the parliament more powerful and it isn't something to be ignored. It isn't entirely 'useless' and it opens up a few avenues for future governments to explore. The problem with devolution is that there doesn't seem to be a considerable appetite for it elsewhere and our population is an insignificance on the UK so we can't reasonably demand they change it for us. To me though, full devolution = transfer of all powers held in Westminster = independent nation. Plenty of folk... 'Aye but we will get more powers so we don't need to risk leaving the security of the UK' was a very popular line in my experience I sort of think that it was a bit of an excuse. Kind of like the 'Eh cannae stand Salmond line'. People generally just don't like change and I think 45% of the vote first time round is more impressive than it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMMjag Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 I worry this water-muddying job could work well for the Britnats in the long term. Rightly or wrongly the SNP would be held to account to a far greater extent than they'll ever have been before, and for the Yes movement to succeed the one thing it absolutely needs is a strong SNP government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todders Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 Yeah it's pretty much there to make up the numbers. Again, I just don't ge twhy they can't take a holisitic view on devolution. I think it's actually quite harmful to Scotland. Essentially, half of whatever whatever would have been raised in VAT is being taken from the block grant and given back in "VAT income". So, essentially we end up with the same amount of cash whatever happens to VAT receipts. This means that when the economy is buoyant and there is lots of retail spending then Scotland sees none of the benefit of that increased VAT income as the mechanism will just pull even more money out of the black grant to compensate. Another net flow of cash from Scotland to Westminster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaikuHibee Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 To me though, full devolution = transfer of all powers held in Westminster = independent nation. Thats total bollocks. We don't have any power. They gave us Murphy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 The reaction here is pretty hysterical to be honest. I think some people genuinely believed we were going to get powers over everything bar defence and foreign affairs. That was never going to happen. Sturgeon said at the start that she wouldn't get everything she wanted because she wants total independence. I think she might be playing a clever game here though, because although I think she'll have a good idea how to utilise these new powers (however small they may be), she knows that she has to keep beating the drum and saying it's nowhere near enough. If she started saying, "This is great news and we're fully satisfied with the report from the Commission", then the dream of independence would have just died on it's arse there and then. Well, feck me sideways and call me Clarence. Jamaldo, for quite possibly the first time this year, has displayed something other than his usual "heads gone" style M.O. and is speaking the most sense out of all the Nats in this thread. Have a greenie, and keep up the good work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Bairn Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 Plenty of folk... 'Aye but we will get more powers so we don't need to risk leaving the security of the UK' was a very popular line in my experience I'll let you into a secret, most No voters don't actually give a feck about more powers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harry94 Posted November 27, 2014 Share Posted November 27, 2014 Thats total bollocks. We don't have any power. They gave us Murphy. I don't think you understood my post. My point was that maximum devolution would be independence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Jack D Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 I'll let you into a secret, most No voters don't actually give a feck about more powers. Sadly I think that may be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Mr Bairn's posting style will never stop being funny will it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Mr Bairn's posting style will never stop being funny will it? Has it started? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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