Mr Rational Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Like the UK is a country without an empire to run, NATO is military organisation without a war to fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I can accept that from a Cold War standpoint countries might have seen membership as a necessity. From a Scottish point of view, in the 21st century I just can't see an argument for NATO membership, particularly as two bones of contention for independence supporters are the UK's nuclear deterrent and our military adventurism. Why would you want to join an organisation that asks you to commit to defence spending that might not suit your needs, pressure you into contributing to foreign interventions, and may want to harbour nuclear weapons in your territory (whether your government publicly objects o them or not)? It depends really, on the changing nature of geopolitics in Europe, we are so used to Europe being quiescent but that is not necessarily a permanent fixture. I'd note that as the complete lack of action on climate change means that as sea temperatures rise, and fossil fuels become harder to source, the arctic is likely to become a much more major theatre of interest, as competing nations claim chunks of sea bead and the arctic becomes navigable all year round, and Scotland is sitting right on the door step of that (it's not an original statement to say that Scotland is not just the northern tip of the British isles but also the southern tip of Scandanavia) It's also worth noting that the British Isles in general have always been vulnerable unless the channel ports are in the hands of an allied nation. In these modern times, we take that security for granted, and it may seem utterly unthinkable for a neer peer competitor to ever threaten Europe again, but it's still worth noting that every major war fought by the English/British in Europe has been over control (or lack thereof) of the far side of the English channel. No doubt NATO's credibility was harmed somewhat by the amorphous, nebulous 'adventure' into Afghanstan. It's certainly true that NATO shouldn't really become an agent of global policing: even where the UN's major, useful combatant forces are all drawn from NATO participants, there should be clear demarcation, as tempting as it is to replicate NATO command structures for such missions. Yet, for me, I think you will see the situation in Northern Europe change over the next few decades, and NATO does form the defence backbone of Europe, it's worht keeping for those reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted November 1, 2015 Author Share Posted November 1, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlion Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 ImageUploadedByPie & Bovril1446383896.786827.jpg And not a single f**k was given by the Labour Party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 ImageUploadedByPie & Bovril1446383896.786827.jpg So we are allowed in Nato now with no nukes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted November 1, 2015 Author Share Posted November 1, 2015 So we are allowed in Nato now with no nukes? I would imagine the tune on that will change pretty quickly. Similar to how Norway has suddenly became a good, successful nation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Heres a handy reminder Uk labour conference-for Uk labour leader-against Uk shadow cabinet-for Scottish conference-against Scottish branch leader-for Only scottish mp-against Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 The SNP leading Scottish politics by the nose. Good stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Genuine question. In the new autonomous Scottish labour party does our one labour MP vote with the UK party policy in supporting trident renewal and TTIP or with the "Scottish" labour party policy? Never thought I would have to say it but fair play to ordinary grassroots Labour members in Scotland for doing the right things today though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Genuine question. In the new autonomous Scottish labour party does our one labour MP vote with the UK party policy in supporting trident renewal and TTIP or with the "Scottish" labour party policy?I wouldn't have an answer for that but the party whips in Westminster won't be happy at having an MP who takes his lead from the Scottish branch, will they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antiochas III Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 So we are allowed in Nato now with no nukes? We'd be of better use to our NATO allies without spending a chunk of our military budget on the white elephant that is Trident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 I wouldn't have an answer for that but the party whips in Westminster won't be happy at having an MP who takes his lead from the Scottish branch, will they? No. no they wont and with no scottish whip how would it be enforced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Cort's Hamstring Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 It depends really, on the changing nature of geopolitics in Europe, we are so used to Europe being quiescent but that is not necessarily a permanent fixture. I'd note that as the complete lack of action on climate change means that as sea temperatures rise, and fossil fuels become harder to source, the arctic is likely to become a much more major theatre of interest, as competing nations claim chunks of sea bead and the arctic becomes navigable all year round, and Scotland is sitting right on the door step of that (it's not an original statement to say that Scotland is not just the northern tip of the British isles but also the southern tip of Scandanavia) It's also worth noting that the British Isles in general have always been vulnerable unless the channel ports are in the hands of an allied nation. In these modern times, we take that security for granted, and it may seem utterly unthinkable for a neer peer competitor to ever threaten Europe again, but it's still worth noting that every major war fought by the English/British in Europe has been over control (or lack thereof) of the far side of the English channel. No doubt NATO's credibility was harmed somewhat by the amorphous, nebulous 'adventure' into Afghanstan. It's certainly true that NATO shouldn't really become an agent of global policing: even where the UN's major, useful combatant forces are all drawn from NATO participants, there should be clear demarcation, as tempting as it is to replicate NATO command structures for such missions. Yet, for me, I think you will see the situation in Northern Europe change over the next few decades, and NATO does form the defence backbone of Europe, it's worht keeping for those reasons. Food for thought that. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colkitto Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 Heres a handy reminder Uk labour conference-for Uk labour leader-against Uk shadow cabinet-for Scottish conference-against Scottish branch leader-for Only scottish mp-against That's marvellous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted November 1, 2015 Share Posted November 1, 2015 So not up to date. Is Mother Russia still the reason why we need Trident despite 15 of 16 nations that have a land border and 1 of the 2 that share a Maritime border not having nukes? Damn right it's still the reason. If we didn't have nukes what would stop Russia from annexing parts of neighbouring countries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Jackie Baillie on TV just now (conference highlights lol) debating trident. She managed to fit in SNPbad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Jackie Baillie on TV just now (conference highlights lol) debating trident. She managed to fit in SNPbad. Tbf the SNP's record on health and education means there won't be anyone healthy or intelligent enough to fire Trident from up here if necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjw Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Tbf the SNP's record on health and education means there won't be anyone healthy or intelligent enough to fire Trident from up here if necessary.We might end up with Boris and 'The Donald' holding the red button in the future.We might be safer leaving it with a jock who can't read and write with a life expectancy of 32. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Telt http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/nov/02/trident-maria-eagle-asserts-defence-authority-scottish-labour?CMP=twt_b-gdnnews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Koop Posted November 2, 2015 Share Posted November 2, 2015 Successor submarines - every home should have one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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