Country Ranking gone from 10th to 23rd in past ten years

[yoda]

Well that's 3 out of Scotland`s 4 teams gone already. Pretty piss poor really.

Yeah, taken out of context things look terrible.

The system maybe broke, but we are not really doing ourselfs any favours by still avoiding summer football.

Our teams are not fit enough, sharp enough, good enough to play against some of these obscure teams around europe. Especially in high tempertures and long journeys.

Europa League and Champions League qualifiers start at the end of June/start of July. And we will be finding our teams entering the Q1 and Q2 stages on a regualar basis. So why dont we bring the league and cups forward 2/3 weeks? Clubs will start preperations for these games earlier in the year and players will be much fitter for these early rounds of the qualifiers. Could be the extra edge our teams need to win more games and progress further.

This misplaced arrogance is baffling - "Just who are these obscure nobodies from the Continent that I've never even heard of? They must be rubbish".

[RedLichtie86]

Yeah, taken out of context things look terrible.

This misplaced arrogance is baffling - "Just who are these obscure nobodies from the Continent that I've never even heard of? They must be rubbish".

How is saying they are obscure, seen as being arrogant??? I also never said they were rubbish. I mearly stated they were obscure teams, unkown to us or how good they are.

No doubt there are people in Armenia, Moldova and Latvia saying "Who are St Johnstone? Who are Linfield? Who are The New Saints? When they see names of teams they have never heard of.

[yoda]

How is saying they are obscure, seen as being arrogant??? I also never said they were rubbish. I mearly stated they were obscure teams, unkown to us or how good they are.

No doubt there are people in Armenia, Moldova and Latvia saying "Who are St Johnstone? Who are Linfield? Who are The New Saints? When they see names of teams they have never heard of.

"Obscure" tends to be used as a pejorative term in the Scottish "fitba" media. If that wasn't your intention then apologies for the misunderstanding.

Anyway, back to the summer football argument, what's the point? Did Aberdeen lose to Kairat because the Kazakh Premier League runs from March to November, or did they lose because Kairat are a better team?

"Summer football" Stromsgodset were beaten by "winter football" Hajduk Split - should Norway switch to "winter" football?

[RedLichtie86]

"Obscure" tends to be used as a pejorative term in the Scottish "fitba" media. If that wasn't your intention then apologies for the misunderstanding.

Anyway, back to the summer football argument, what's the point? Did Aberdeen lose to Kairat because the Kazakh Premier League runs from March to November, or did they lose because Kairat are a better team?

"Summer football" Stromsgodset were beaten by "winter football" Hajduk Split - should Norway switch to "winter" football?

I mearly said that bringing the start of the seaon forward could probably aid clubs in their european adventures.

St Johnstone may have been able to get through if there first competitive game away to the Armenian team wasnt 4 weeks before the league season started. If the league had started on the 18th of July, St Johnstone may have been better prepared for their Europa League game.

Aberdeen didnt look convincing during that round either.

[calum_gers]

I mearly said that bringing the start of the seaon forward could probably aid clubs in their european adventures.

St Johnstone may have been able to get through if there first competitive game away to the Armenian team wasnt 4 weeks before the league season started. If the league had started on the 18th of July, St Johnstone may have been better prepared for their Europa League game.

Aberdeen didnt look convincing during that round either.

Had Alashkert not had a longer break than St Johnstone?

[Steve McQueen]

The main problem is these obscure clubs have a bigger budget than all but 1 of our clubs.

Certainly not Alashkert but FC Minsk & Spartak Trnava were miles ahead of us.

There is only one answer & that is splitting all commercial revenue equally between the 12 clubs.

[HibeeJibee]

Especially in high tempertures and long journeys.

Europa League and Champions League qualifiers start at the end of June/start of July. And we will be finding our teams entering the Q1 and Q2 stages on a regualar basis. So why dont we bring the league and cups forward 2/3 weeks? Clubs will start preperations for these games earlier in the year and players will be much fitter for these early rounds of the qualifiers. Could be the extra edge our teams need to win more games and progress further.

I actually agree with the idea of starting sometime in July, as a lot of leagues do (and they almost invariably finish in May as well - this idea about finishing at Easter is bizarre). Problem is: the clubs themselves clearly don't want to be playing domestic games 2 days before or after trips to the other side of the continent... this is why the experiment with starting the SPL at the end of July only lasted one season; why the likes of Aberdeen have cancelled games after their matches with Real Sociedad and Kairat Almaty; why the idea for League Cup groups specifically excludes them from those groups, and puts them straight into the knockout stages. It appears the clubs themselves prefer space for more training and recovery.

It's quite difficult to find conclusive proof for it, anyway. St Johnstone lost to a poor Armenian side who'd had the same length of break. Aberdeen thumped a strong Croatian team whose season had just got underway, then ran a strong Kazakh team very close halfway through their season... St Johnstone put out Rosenborg a couple of seasons ago... etc.

[tarapoa]

Anyway, back to the summer football argument, what's the point? Did Aberdeen lose to Kairat because the Kazakh Premier League runs from March to November, or did they lose because Kairat are a better team?

"Summer football" Stromsgodset were beaten by "winter football" Hajduk Split - should Norway switch to "winter" football?

No excuses on that score re: our loss to Kairat - they were a step ahead of us technically and in their game intelligence (including gamesmanship). We had played several matches by this point, so our energy levels were fine - even after the long travel etc in the first match.

However, there is merit in this argument on at least aligning the start of our season with that of Europa QR1, which will be a reality our clubs for years to come now and at least removing that obvious problem.

St Johnstone and Aberdeen both struggled in QR1 against sides they probably would have beaten comfortably had the matches occurred now.

Conversely, I also put a lot of Aberdeen's QR2 wins vs the seeded Groningen last season and Rijeka this season down to the fact that we had played a couple of matches, and the opponents were starting their season. We had the wee advantage in competitive match fitness there.

Other problems need addressed such as taking twice as long to control a football as our opponents, learning how to weight a pass and move into space like our opponents etc..........all three of the sides at Pittodrie this season have been vastly superior in the basics, and much as we love the blood and thunder of our domestic game, it really does get exposed time and again when we play continental opposition. Ironically, when we did resort to route one hoofball last night for the last 10-15 minutes last night, with Taylor going up front, Kairat were finally given something to worry about !

Never mind, this European stuff will all be forgotten about soon, and we can stop worrying about it until next summer.

[realmadrid]

It's not great but the whole system needs changed. The second best team in Scotland shouldn't have to play 4 teams to just get into the group stages of the Europa League and the best team in Scotland 3 teams to get into the Champions League.

Good luck in getting anywhere with this. The whole system is set up for the top 12 nations and while some on here are looking to get to the top 15, positions 13-15 don't offer that much.

Look at the Czech Republic, they were in 15th place for this seasons access list, what does that get them 2 places in the 3rd qualifying round of the champions league 2 places in the 3rd qualifying round of the Europa and one in the second round.

Both of their Champions league teams lost and now they have 5 teams in the play off round of the Europa league. I do find it strange that for these 3 nations their champions could be eliminated and the runners up could end up playing in the Champions league.

The fact that after 3 rounds of qualifying for the Europa league 15 teams drop into the play off round and of the 48 spaces in the group stage only 22 come from the qualifying rounds says it all.

[Clyde01]

Look at the Czech Republic, they were in 15th place for this seasons access list, what does that get them 2 places in the 3rd qualifying round of the champions league 2 places in the 3rd qualifying round of the Europa and one in the second round.

Both of their Champions league teams lost and now they have 5 teams in the play off round of the Europa league. I do find it strange that for these 3 nations their champions could be eliminated and the runners up could end up playing in the Champions league.

Surely 2 teams in champs league q3, 2 teams in Europa q3 and 1 team in Europa q2 is vastly better than what we currently have? Getting to 15th place would make a massive difference!

Also Czech Republic don't have 5 teams in the playoff round as mlada boleslav lost their Europa q2 tie.

It is strange however that the champions of Austria (Salzburg) are eliminated from the champions league but the runner-up (rapid Vienna) are still in after dispatching Ajax.

[HibeeJibee]

Climbing from our current 23rd makes no difference until 17th (or 18th most years when titleholder places go unused) and even then the only benefit is existing clubs entering EL a bit later, plus a little bit of help with seeding.

At the opposite end of the scale - I don't see us ever making top 12.

If we could reach 13th-15th, however, I think that would be a good thing. Second club in CL for starters, and multiple clubs needing only 1 or 2 wins for EL groups.

[Clyde01]

Of the 51 ties played in Europa league Q1, only 9 sides have reached the playoff round: Odd & Rosenborg (Nor), Gabala (Aze), Brondby (Den), Vojvodina (Ser), Hajduk Split (Cro), Kairat Almaty (Kaz), Rabotnicki (Mac), MSK Zilina (Svk).

This highlights just how difficult it is for our teams starting that early in the competition to make it all the way to the playoff or groups.

[HeartsOfficialMoaner]

Climbing from our current 23rd makes no difference until 17th (or 18th most years when titleholder places go unused) and even then the only benefit is existing clubs entering EL a bit later, plus a little bit of help with seeding.

At the opposite end of the scale - I don't see us ever making top 12.

If we could reach 13th-15th, however, I think that would be a good thing. Second club in CL for starters, and multiple clubs needing only 1 or 2 wins for EL groups.

How far do Celtic have to go for us to get a second Champions League spot?

[FairWeatherFan]

How far do Celtic have to go for us to get a second Champions League spot?

To get into the Top 15 this season they would basically need to win every game from now on & hope a couple of countries don't do much.

[HeartsOfficialMoaner]

To get into the Top 15 this season they would basically need to win every game from now on & hope a couple of countries don't do much.

Okay, thanks. Not much chance of that.

[andrewh]

I actually agree with the idea of starting sometime in July, as a lot of leagues do (and they almost invariably finish in May as well - this idea about finishing at Easter is bizarre). Problem is: the clubs themselves clearly don't want to be playing domestic games 2 days before or after trips to the other side of the continent... this is why the experiment with starting the SPL at the end of July only lasted one season; why the likes of Aberdeen have cancelled games after their matches with Real Sociedad and Kairat Almaty; why the idea for League Cup groups specifically excludes them from those groups, and puts them straight into the knockout stages. It appears the clubs themselves prefer space for more training and recovery.

It's quite difficult to find conclusive proof for it, anyway. St Johnstone lost to a poor Armenian side who'd had the same length of break. Aberdeen thumped a strong Croatian team whose season had just got underway, then ran a strong Kazakh team very close halfway through their season... St Johnstone put out Rosenborg a couple of seasons ago... etc.

There are so many factors involved.

One of our (St Johnstone's) biggest problems seems to be that we are naive.

We beat Rosenberg & Luzern but have gone out 3 years straight against East European/Eurasian sides (no stereotypical foreigners comments please ) who are streetwise, break up the play, start with one player fouling until he's booked then another takes over, even get someone red carded, time waste, etc. Whereas we seem to be almost apologetic and too nice, while trying to play our normal game. Refs don't offer much help in these situations.

So, for me, our naivety contributed to our exits. I'm certain it's a factor.

[tarapoa]

East European/Eurasian sides (no stereotypical foreigners comments please ) who are streetwise, break up the play, start with one player fouling until he's booked then another takes over, even get someone red carded, time waste, etc. Whereas we seem to be almost apologetic and too nice, while trying to play our normal game. Refs don't offer much help in these situations.

Kairat did this - half a dozen of them took it in turns to produce "reducers" and earn a yellow card. Then three or four of their players roll around time-wasting.

If you add the 30 seconds for a sub together with the amount of time rolling around the floor - there should probably have been about 7 or 8 minutes added on.

However, the officials probably thought they were being kind adding on 5 minutes.

Our local paper did their usual greet about it the next day, but it's a cliché - it's simply always going to happen against these teams, we just need to deal with it - even if it means similar classless behaviour at their place.

[kramer]

It's kinda strange what's deemed acceptable by these teams, yet not returning the ball after all their antics is sacrilege. I remember it happening a couple of times at Hampden, once earning McFadden a critical booking despite not being involved. I can only imagine the hell that would have broken lose had Rooney rolled it into the net when he had the chance!

[Mastermind]

Well that's 3 out of Scotland`s 4 teams gone already. Pretty piss poor really.

This. Diabolical yet again.

[54_and_counting]

Climbing from our current 23rd makes no difference until 17th (or 18th most years when titleholder places go unused) and even then the only benefit is existing clubs entering EL a bit later, plus a little bit of help with seeding.

At the opposite end of the scale - I don't see us ever making top 12.

If we could reach 13th-15th, however, I think that would be a good thing. Second club in CL for starters, and multiple clubs needing only 1 or 2 wins for EL groups.

there is no chance of that happening even if rangers ever get back into european tournaments

scotland had a wee golden spell around mid to late 2000's culminating in the 07-08 season when aberdeen got to the uefa cup post xmas, rangers went to the final after reaching the CL group stages and celtic made the CL last 16

since then scotlands european campaigns have been brutal at best and we never took advantage of the big points gain from the 2000's, once they fell off in 2013 we are struggling to get any sort of a foothold in europe