When will indyref2 happen?

[Cerberus]

If we can point the finger at Farage and Aaron Banks for the Russian bots meddling during Brexit who do we blame for the Russian bots used during the ScotRef?

 

[MONKMAN]

If we can point the finger at Farage and Aaron Banks for the Russian bots meddling during Brexit who do we blame for the Russian bots used during the ScotRef?
 

I blame rangers fans.

[welshbairn]

37 minutes ago, Cerberus said:

If we can point the finger at Farage and Aaron Banks for the Russian bots meddling during Brexit who do we blame for the Russian bots used during the ScotRef?

 

Mariano Rajoy.

[BawWatchin]

The loudest laughs are coming from the political elite who have successfully duped us into believing that we lost that referendum. We were never allowed to win it under any circumstance. The threat to British National Security would have been considered far too great.

[AUFC90]

It's not 'debunked'. It isn't a comprehensive description of an independent Scotland but it is based on metrics which exist. Hague was being a bit of a tit and out of his depth in discussing the matter at hand during the previous argument we had a few months ago but that doesn't make it completely worthless.

Unless it's off by a really substantial estimate, it is an economic reality that there's a challenging deficit to balance. The whole crap where people bring oil into the independence argument as a great strength is just complete nonsense and ruins their credibility. We're talking about maybe an increase of 10% on oil revenues here, it's a tiny amount for the tin hat brigade to start spouting BBC bias nonsense about.

The argument needs to be won with a vision of investment in people and establishment of intellectual capital long-term. We've got considerable assets that can be utilised and developed with independence (or more powers) but these arguments are not being made by the mainstream movement.

Even if all that's true im sure the Tories will do everything they can to 'fix' it [emoji23]

[harry94]

Just now, AUFC90 said:

Even if all that's true im sure the Tories will do everything they can to 'fix' it

They do a good enough job of thrashing our economy day to day without even needing to do anything more sinister in this regard!

It's an abusive relationship but it doesn't change that the dark reality that there could be a short-term impact that means more poverty and job losses in Scotland. The SNP really need to get their strategy right with their answer to the economy - even if that means that they take a bit longer to get there and use further long-term devolution as part of that strategy.

[AUFC90]

Jingoistic UK nationalist in “thinking that the majority of Scotland is or has been scummy” shocker. 

He said they appeal to the scummy part. Since they've had a majority win in Holyrood and Westminster it's fair to assume that they thinks at the very least half the population are scummy. All the whilst set against a backdrop of the UK government jumping off a cliff coz immigrants. Thank god he fucked off to England, the less red hand types the better.

[AUFC90]

They do a good enough job of thrashing our economy day to day without even needing to do anything more sinister in this regard!
It's an abusive relationship but it doesn't change that the dark reality that there could be a short-term impact that means more poverty and job losses in Scotland. The SNP really need to get their strategy right with their answer to the economy - even if that means that they take a bit longer to get there and use further long-term devolution as part of that strategy.

I didn't vote yes for short term. I have absolutley no doubt that over a period of say, forty years, we'll be much better off independent. Ireland is much better off without ANY natural resources. If you want to be chained to useless Tories for eternity because Scotlands GDP might go down a few points for a few years then more fool you.

[harry94]

1 minute ago, AUFC90 said:

1 hour ago, harry94 said:

They do a good enough job of thrashing our economy day to day without even needing to do anything more sinister in this regard!
It's an abusive relationship but it doesn't change that the dark reality that there could be a short-term impact that means more poverty and job losses in Scotland. The SNP really need to get their strategy right with their answer to the economy - even if that means that they take a bit longer to get there and use further long-term devolution as part of that strategy.

I didn't vote yes for short term. I have absolutley no doubt that over a period of say, forty years, we'll be much better off independent. Ireland is much better off without ANY natural resources. If you want to be chained to useless Tories for eternity because Scotlands GDP might go down a few points for a few years then more fool you.

I don't disagree with that much tbh but just pointing out that it's unreasonable to have that expectation of the electorate. We can't call 55% of the electorate stupid when they have very real concerns over their own security in life.

People who I work with now would certainly not have the jobs that they do now if we'd voted yes before. Easy to say that it would all work out fine and we'd strengthen in other areas but if somebody genuinely worries about being dramatically poorer in the near future, it's going to take a lot in most cases to counter that.

[AUFC90]

I don't disagree with that much tbh but just pointing out that it's unreasonable to have that expectation of the electorate. We can't call 55% of the electorate stupid when they have very real concerns over their own security in life.
People who I work with now would certainly not have the jobs that they do now if we'd voted yes before. Easy to say that it would all work out fine and we'd strengthen in other areas but if somebody genuinely worries about being dramatically poorer in the near future, it's going to take a lot in most cases to counter that.

What jobs are they in ? Financial services is about the only one that I would say that had the potential to lose thousands of jobs.....maybe. Those same jobs might be lost in the near future due to Brexit anyway. The HMRC jobs that were guaranteed if we voted no have already gone. The shipyard jobs dont look anymore secure than they did during the referendum. Ironically the shipyard that was saved by the Scottish government and decided to branch out is doing rather well. Look i can't convince people with a bit of money to stop fearing change. They always will. Voting wasnt really across income lines anyway more generational lines. A majority of Scots born people voted yes, rich and poor. If there was a balanced media outlining the negatives of the UK as much as the negatives of an independent Scotland we would already be independent by a relatively significant margine.

[harry94]

1 minute ago, AUFC90 said:

8 minutes ago, harry94 said:

I don't disagree with that much tbh but just pointing out that it's unreasonable to have that expectation of the electorate. We can't call 55% of the electorate stupid when they have very real concerns over their own security in life.
People who I work with now would certainly not have the jobs that they do now if we'd voted yes before. Easy to say that it would all work out fine and we'd strengthen in other areas but if somebody genuinely worries about being dramatically poorer in the near future, it's going to take a lot in most cases to counter that.

What jobs are they in ? Financial services is about the only one that I would say that had the potential to lose thousands of jobs.....maybe. Those same jobs might be lost in the near future due to Brexit anyway. The HMRC jobs that were guaranteed if we voted no have already gone. The shipyard jobs dont look anymore secure than they did during the referendum. Ironically the shipyard that was saved by the Scottish government and decided to branch out is doing rather well. Look i can't convince people with a bit of money to stop fearing change. They always will. Voting wasnt really across income lines anyway more generational lines. A majority of Scots born people voted yes, rich and poor. If there was a balanced media outlining the negatives of the UK as much as the negatives of an independent Scotland we would already be independent by a relatively significant margine.

Scientific research. It's not in a good situation right now with the EU issue and there may well be potential for independence to now change how the argument plays out next time but last time round, it was pretty clear what would happen. Not necessarily a closure of institutions on a mass scale but the way the funding works with the bulk of grants being processed at a UK level, it would have seen a lot of that money dry up. By the time it was sorted and maybe a like for like commitment was made by Holyrood, a lot of progress would have been lost - funding grows funding.

I think the issue is as well that a lot of the non Scottish part of the electorate work in areas like the above mentioned with skill gaps so convincing them on that sort of upheaval that will hurt them when they are maybe not all that settled here anyway is always a challenge.

[AUFC90]

Scientific research. It's not in a good situation right now with the EU issue and there may well be potential for independence to now change how the argument plays out next time but last time round, it was pretty clear what would happen. Not necessarily a closure of institutions on a mass scale but the way the funding works with the bulk of grants being processed at a UK level, it would have seen a lot of that money dry up. By the time it was sorted and maybe a like for like commitment was made by Holyrood, a lot of progress would have been lost - funding grows funding. I think the issue is as well that a lot of the non Scottish part of the electorate work in areas like the above mentioned with skill gaps so convincing them on that sort of upheaval that will hurt them when they are maybe not all that settled here anyway is always a challenge.

 

Didn't all the reasearch people say that reasearch would still continue cross borders like it always has ? If Glasgow uni is the best at reasearching a particular subject they'll always be the best at it.  

That will always be a challenge. They always have the option to go back to England and work in the same sector though.

Most Scots born people want to die in this country and quite frankly if people are voting against what i percieve as my future grandkids best interests based on a 4 year contract then f**k them.

 

 

 

[harry94]

1 minute ago, AUFC90 said:

Didn't all the reasearch people say that reasearch would still continue cross borders like it always has. If Glasgow uni is the best at reasearching a particular subject they'll always be the best at it.

 

That will always be a challenge. They always have the option to go back to England and work in the sector. Most Scots born people want to die in this country and quite frankly if people are voting against what i percieve as my future grandkids best interests based on a 4 year contract then f**k them.

 

Well yes, research would have always continued but that's not the point; institutions can certainly decline in standards based on the money they get and people they can attract. It's generally the case that we've got multiple parties funding projects (i.e. local government, EU, UK Government, industry, interest groups etc) that consist of more than one institution. If there's some doubt about the ability to employ certain people or even receive match funding, the money will go elsewhere. That project would then likely be used as a springboard for a future grant a few years down the line so if we did go independent in 2014, we'd maybe have sorted the complicated issues well before now but the next round of grants would be fought in a poorer position in the rest of the UK. The less projects and migrants attracted, the less money they have to do other things with and train up the next generation.

There's certainly ways to rejuvenate this with independence (researchers are generally appalled by the current UK government who seem pretty anti-science in many ways and ignore calls for simple pieces of legislation that would massively help out - which Scotland could do instead) but the key to this is putting forward a proposal with a steady economic transition. That guarantees that universities can commit to employing people long-term and convinces the funding people that we can get our job done on our side.

[Peppino Impastato]

4 hours ago, BawWatchin said:

The loudest laughs are coming from the political elite who have successfully duped us into believing that we lost that referendum. We were never allowed to win it under any circumstance. The threat to British National Security would have been considered far too great.

The percentage of postal votes was completely unprecedented

[Peppino Impastato]

57 minutes ago, harry94 said:

I don't disagree with that much tbh but just pointing out that it's unreasonable to have that expectation of the electorate. We can't call 55% of the electorate stupid when they have very real concerns over their own security in life.

People who I work with now would certainly not have the jobs that they do now if we'd voted yes before. Easy to say that it would all work out fine and we'd strengthen in other areas but if somebody genuinely worries about being dramatically poorer in the near future, it's going to take a lot in most cases to counter that.

What jobs are those out of interest?

  Btw gers is absolutely MILES off. We exported £6 billion of goods and services to England in 2016 that gers doesn't take account of.  That's things like electricity.  We don't get paid for any of it, independent we would.  Therefore those things alone account for 40% of the 'deficit'.

 

[Antlion]

2 hours ago, harry94 said:

They do a good enough job of thrashing our economy day to day without even needing to do anything more sinister in this regard!

It's an abusive relationship but it doesn't change that the dark reality that there could be a short-term impact that means more poverty and job losses in Scotland. The SNP really need to get their strategy right with their answer to the economy - even if that means that they take a bit longer to get there and use further long-term devolution as part of that strategy.

Surely they don’t need to bother - they just need to paste lies on the side of a bus. That apparently works. 

[Baxter Parp]

1 minute ago, Antlion said:

Surely they don’t need to bother - they just need to paste lies on the side of a bus. That apparently works. 

"Expensive, scientifically targeted untruths", I think you'll find.

[The DA]

Apologies if this has been posted elsewhere but I couldn't see any other Indy threads.

https://www.facebook.com/TheCommonWeal/videos/1778683055536024/

I don't think you need a FB account to watch this but it's quite uplifting.  I had a tear in my eye watching it - it really does make it all seem possible, manageable and less scary.

My copies of A Short Guide to Starting a New Country and its big brother, How to Start a New Country, arrived today so that's my reading for the rest of the week taken care of.  I believe they cover the same ground as the video but obviously adding the meat to the bones.  They're not about why independence is a good idea or how to achieve it.  Instead they describe the tasks that need to be completed before and after the Yes vote.  What institutions need to be put in place, what decisions made, etc.  Basically answering most of the questions that were unanswered last time round.  Looking forward to the chapter on a new Scottish currency.

Anybody else reading these?

[bob the tank]

What jobs are those out of interest?
  Btw gers is absolutely MILES off. We exported £6 billion of goods and services to England in 2016 that gers doesn't take account of.  That's things like electricity.  We don't get paid for any of it, independent we would.  Therefore those things alone account for 40% of the 'deficit'.
 

We didn't export anything to England as there is no internal market in our precious union, and gers isn't miles off it is totally made up westminster bullshit

[strichener]

32 minutes ago, bob the tank said:

 

a) We didn't export anything to England as there is no internal market in our precious union,

b) and gers isn't miles off it is totally made up westminster bullshit

 

a) UK Government recognising Scottish Exports to other parts of the UK

b) ISBN: 978-1-78851-161-2, Published by The Scottish Government, August 2017, Produced for The Scottish Government

0/2 - must try harder.