Asher's Bakery Belfast - Lose Court Appeal Over Gay Wedding Cake.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Will that ruling now compel a vegetarian restaurant to cook a t-bone steak?

No

[Granny Danger]

1 minute ago, pandarilla said:

 

So would you be OK with a bnp cake, slogans and all?

I know this has been asked already but unless I'm mistaken I don't think you've answered it.

 

I've not been asked by you, if I had been I would have replied by now.

No I would not be happy with that, the BNP are irrationally intolerant.  There is nothing rational about the bigotry that underscores BNP ideas.

[The_Kincardine]

3 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

Discriminating against people for being pro-Brexit isn't covered by equality legislation

Reading through the judgement I'd disagree with you.  The tone of it seems to equate religious AND political beliefs.  Thus 'i can't write this it goes against my religious views" and 'I can't write this it goes against my political views' are equally invalid under the law.

[mrcat1990]

No you don't.  You're making it up.

O rly?

In a civilised society there isn't absolute free speech.  Where the line is drawn will always be a matter of contention but I doubt there is anyone on here who would not have their own line.

[Granny Danger]

2 minutes ago, mrcat1990 said:

 

 

O rly?
 

 

 

Well vaguely remembered.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Reading through the judgement I'd disagree with you.  The tone of it seems to equate religious AND political beliefs.  Thus 'i can't write this it goes against my religious views" and 'I can't write this it goes against my political views' are equally invalid under the law.

The law in question being the 2006 Equality act and equality legislation in general

Neither religious or political beliefs would be an acceptable defence in your pro-Brexit cake example but there wouldn't actually be anything to defend in that case so it's not a big deal.

Whether your right to restrict swivel eyed loons right to express themselves through custom cakes is a good thing is another question

[Fullerene]

2 hours ago, mrcat1990 said:

 

 

 

Oh dear.  Sesame Street is definitely more raunchy than I remember it!

[pandarilla]

I've not been asked by you, if I had been I would have replied by now.

No I would not be happy with that, the BNP are irrationally intolerant.  There is nothing rational about the bigotry that underscores BNP ideas.

But would this law not force you to do it?

And if so, would you do it anyway?

And are you comfortable with a law that forces you to?

(Apologies if I've misunderstood the ruling and am barking up the wrong tree)

[topcat(The most tip top)]

But would this law not force you to do it?

And if so, would you do it anyway?

And are you comfortable with a law that forces you to?

(Apologies if I've misunderstood the ruling and am barking up the wrong tree)

This is basically the same as concurrent discussion I'm having with the Kincardine

I'm maintaining that unless the group your discriminating against (The BNP in your case) is protected by specific equality legislation then your not forced to do anything.

[Ivo den Bieman]

1 hour ago, WaffenThinMint said:

Nice try.

No real surprise you didn't understand that one - Buckled Lefties do tend to have as much difficulty as the Nazi cheek of the same arse when it comes to understanding plurality, largely because hivemind is the only mind acceptable to those wanting to live the "1984" wet dream.

Tolerance in practice means accepting not everyone is going to like what you like, think the same way, etc; not attempting to force people to accept it, especially by downright coercion. It's what grown ups have largely managed to do for centuries (bar occasional series of theological & political madness when millions died for not obeying the hivemind) - or at least they did until lawyers saw it as a brand new money making opportunity.

Those societies that have allowed their citizens the maximum capacity to "agreed to disagree" have proven to be the most stable and successful. Those where they try to impose on their citizenry how to think and act have invariably proven to be disasters as it comes back to bite them time and time again.

Some business doesn't want to bake you a cake because you want a "Support Gay Marriage"/"John McVeigh Is A Tit"/"I Licked Throbber's Crusty Sock" message on it? Fine - go to another baker, it's the free market after all.

Or perhaps get out the recipe book, learn how to do it yourself like a grown up and man the f**k up about your "hurt feelings".

Nice evasion...so "tolerance in practice" means freedom for Holocaust deniers, bigots and homphobes to spew their bile.

I'm perfectly tolerant of others views so long as it is reciprocated. I am intolerant of adherents to religion using said texts to justify their hatred / intolerance of people who live in a way different to that set out in said religious texts.

The rest of your post is just mad, and the views that I am supposed to hold don't exist except in your own head. All this nonsense about "hurt feelings" and "Nazi arsecheeks". I mean, really.

You come across as a very poorly socialised, lonely indivdual with deep seated anger issues. I expect you feel that your greatness isn't recognised at work.

[The_Kincardine]

37 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

The law in question being the 2006 Equality act and equality legislation in general

And also "on the grounds of religious and political belief contrary to the Fair Employment and Treatment (NI) Order 1998 (“the 1998 Order”)"

I don't have the advantage of a failed law degree but since they cited the above Act and made constant reference to religious/political views and seemed not to distinguish between the two I'd be uncomfortable in refusing to write a political statement.

I have no sympathy with the B&B owners who denied service to a gay couple.  I'd have no sympathy with the bakers if they refused to serve a gay customer.  I am no clearer on the basis in which you can refuse to write a message if you say it's only related to gender equality.

[Jambomo]

If you provide a service then you should provide it equally to everyone.

It's making a cake. There's no suggestion that by making it you believe in what you are making or agree with it. As someone pointed out, I might not want to make a Pro-Brexit cake or a Love the Union cake but I'd just shut up and do it - you are simply providing the required item not promoting or buying into an ideal.

[welshbairn]

2 minutes ago, Jambomo said:

If you provide a service then you should provide it equally to everyone.

It's making a cake. There's no suggestion that by making it you believe in what you are making or agree with it. As someone pointed out, I might not want to make a Pro-Brexit cake or a Love the Union cake but I'd just shut up and do it - you are simply providing the required item not promoting or buying into an ideal.
 

Should you be forced to print leaflets or pamphlets whatever the content if somebody offers the right cash, if you're a printer? 

[Granny Danger]

48 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

 

But would this law not force you to do it?

And if so, would you do it anyway?

And are you comfortable with a law that forces you to?

(Apologies if I've misunderstood the ruling and am barking up the wrong tree)

 

I didn't say I was happy with the law, I said I was happy with the outcome.

I believe that if the same law was applied to the BNP then it should be interpreted/applied differently.

[Jambomo]

Should you be forced to print leaflets or pamphlets whatever the content if somebody offers the right cash, if you're a printer? 

Yes, unless you have reason to believe the content illegal in someway, that you'd be breaking the law by doing so (likewise in this case, of the cake would in some way be illegal or making them break the law by doing so then that is a different case).

We will all come up against things at times we dislike or actively offend what we think is right, but you have to be able to cope with these things in life. You are not being asked to believe in what you are publishing or to support it - it is simply providing the service equally as you advertise.

One example is that I used to work in a public library and we had a collection of Ron L Hubbard Scientology books. Some people argued with us that we shouldn't have them in the library, others dislikes that we classified them as religion and not science. I don't agree at all with Scientology, I think it is a brainwashing scheme designed to prey on poor people who are vulnerable and part them with their cash or worse.

The bottom line though is that we aren't censors, people wanted to read them so we had them in stock. Our personal beliefs weren't relevant, we provided the service that people wanted.

[Fullerene]

28 minutes ago, Jambomo said:

If you provide a service then you should provide it equally to everyone.

It's making a cake. There's no suggestion that by making it you believe in what you are making or agree with it. As someone pointed out, I might not want to make a Pro-Brexit cake or a Love the Union cake but I'd just shut up and do it - you are simply providing the required item not promoting or buying into an ideal.
 

You know I would be inclined to agree with you but the bakers were religious and they thought differently.
Their moral compass is defined by their religion and I suspect for them, a cake that says "Support Gay Marriage" is against God's will in a similar manner to "Support Rape" or "Support Murder".
Personally, I don't think that way but then again I am not religious.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

And also "on the grounds of religious and political belief contrary to the Fair Employment and Treatment (NI) Order 1998 (“the 1998 Order”)"

I don't have the advantage of a failed law degree but since they cited the above Act and made constant reference to religious/political views and seemed not to distinguish between the two I'd be uncomfortable in refusing to write a political statement.

I have no sympathy with the B&B owners who denied service to a gay couple.  I'd have no sympathy with the bakers if they refused to serve a gay customer.  I am no clearer on the basis in which you can refuse to write a message if you say it's only related to gender equality.

Good point sir, this is how we move forward

I've checked this up and you're right

The fair employment and treatment order is clearly intended to counter discrimination on Protestant/Catholic, Republican/Nationalist grounds so it does include

"discrimination on the ground of religious belief or political opinion

But it's not specific about which types.

So in the special case Northern Ireland at least you would indeed have had to make that Brexit cake.

Whether whatever greater good achieved by the act in dealing with what it was intended to outweighs the collateral damage on the freedoms of the likes of anti-gay bakers is probably best left for someone who's living there.

[welshbairn]

49 minutes ago, Jambomo said:

 

Yes, unless you have reason to believe the content illegal in someway, that you'd be breaking the law by doing so (likewise in this case, of the cake would in some way be illegal or making them break the law by doing so then that is a different case).

We will all come up against things at times we dislike or actively offend what we think is right, but you have to be able to cope with these things in life. You are not being asked to believe in what you are publishing or to support it - it is simply providing the service equally as you advertise.

One example is that I used to work in a public library and we had a collection of Ron L Hubbard Scientology books. Some people argued with us that we shouldn't have them in the library, others dislikes that we classified them as religion and not science. I don't agree at all with Scientology, I think it is a brainwashing scheme designed to prey on poor people who are vulnerable and part them with their cash or worse.

The bottom line though is that we aren't censors, people wanted to read them so we had them in stock. Our personal beliefs weren't relevant, we provided the service that people wanted.

 

 

I think a library's a different case, but good point. My perspective is that if, as a printer, I was asked to print posters for sticking on walls, lamp posts etc around where I lived saying something I fundamentally disagreed with on moral grounds (not just political), I would refuse to do it. The guy who asked the baker to make the cake was doing the same thing, deliberately to create publicity. He would have been gutted if the baker had agreed to do it but at least he saved himself from being sued by the Muppets.

 

 

[The_Kincardine]

57 minutes ago, Jambomo said:

As someone pointed out, I might not want to make a Pro-Brexit cake or a Love the Union cake but I'd just shut up and do it 

 

15 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

So in the special case Northern Ireland at least you would indeed have had to make that Brexit cake.

I'd happily scribe the gay cake but refuse the Brexit cake.  I guess I'd be done, in theory.  

Another consideration.  Were the appellants wrong in playing the Skyfairy card so strongly?  Why not reference TFS's disdain for gay marriage as their reason?  I disagree with NI's opposition to same sex marriage.  I find it, though, incongruous that an arm of the state takes issue with a baker upholding state polity.

Thus, "this court doesn't recognise same-sex marriage but your bakery has a duty to endorse a message in support of it" doesn't sit easy with me.

[WaffenThinMint]

1 hour ago, Ivo den Bieman said:

Nice evasion...so "tolerance in practice" means freedom for Holocaust deniers, bigots and homphobes to spew their bile.

I'm perfectly tolerant of others views so long as it is reciprocated. I am intolerant of adherents to religion using said texts to justify their hatred / intolerance of people who live in a way different to that set out in said religious texts.

The rest of your post is just mad, and the views that I am supposed to hold don't exist except in your own head. All this nonsense about "hurt feelings" and "Nazi arsecheeks". I mean, really.

You come across as a very poorly socialised, lonely indivdual with deep seated anger issues. I expect you feel that your greatness isn't recognised at work.

"Nice evasion...so "tolerance in practice" means freedom for Holocaust deniers, bigots and homphobes to spew their bile.

No evasion - you simply weren't paying attention, as the tunnel visioned are wont to do, not reading what was said & merely looking to cherry-pick parts in order to pick holes.

Tolerance in practice means allowing those with contentious views to put them to the crucible of the public at large - & be ripped to pieces accordingly if their evidence for their premises are poorly argued. See the destroyed academic career of David Irving for full details, now reduced to hawking his crappy books around WW2 reenactor events because he's such a laughing stock. See equally what happened to Nick Griffin on Question Time, a moment from which the BNP never recovered - in your world there would have been "no platform" & the BNP may still have been a considerable nuisance.

"I'm perfectly tolerant of others views so long as it is reciprocated."

Define what you mean by reciprocation? One person's reciprocation is another's intolerance - which brings us full circle on the matter of tolerating in a pluralist society that not everyone thinks the same.

"The rest of your post is just mad, and the views that I am supposed to hold don't exist except in your own head. "

Um, you've just admitted over several posts to several different that you want to stamp all over anyone daring to so much as think something you don't like. Mmmm, sure looks like someone wanting to live in the Orwellian "1984" society where "thought crime" was punishable by the full wrath of the state!

"You come across as a very poorly socialised, lonely indivdual with deep seated anger issues. I expect you feel that your greatness isn't recognised at work."

At least I DO work, champ, rather than spending most of my time ranting on a football at how "bigoted" the rest of the world is for not holding to your brittle little world view.