Lions Watch 2017

[Jaggy Snake]

4 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

Hammered Leicester home and away. Destroyed them on home patch. Only 2nd European game they had lost at home in about 10yrs
Must surely be aware of this.... eh a certain Tommy Seymour?
Nope.. never mentions him

 

I'm sure he's aware of it but that still doesn't mean he has to show any loyalty or inherent bias towards him as some seem to expect. McGeechan is just one of many, many pundits who obviously wouldn't select Seymour.

[John Lambies Doos]

I'm sure he's aware of it but that still doesn't mean he has to show any loyalty or inherent bias towards him as some seem to expect. McGeechan is just one of many, many pundits who obviously wouldn't select Seymour.

But would select Warburton, alun wyn Jones and jack nowell?
Seems like he is taking the money with limited research

[dogmc]

Tbf during the season Barnes quinell etc often talked about Seymour as a lions test starter. They also mentioned hogg Russell Watson grey and price throughout the pro12 n Europe for lions. It's only in the crazy universe of Warren ball that having failed to convert try scoring chances in 1st test that the top try scorer of the tour is ignored but an untested midfield combo is chucked in. The sru has always been guilty of shitebaggery (jj being banned for months after calcutta cup shenanigans whilst English gave Richards a slap on wrist, looking to disband 7s side just as it makes real progress etc etc) but there should have been more furore about the lions squad. Our 90 slam n 99 title were won on back of a spine of players who had participated with distinction in the 89 n 97 lions tours. It's a great developmental tool (OK it's not under gatland tbf) when done right and the sru should have been more vocal instead of just counting the ££'s. It's good to see guys like Beattie tait and grant saying their piece. Just be nice to see more from higher up the food chain. No way the irfu would have allowed their players to be ignored like this if they'd only had 2 guys picked for squad and none in tests.

 

 

[Savage Henry]

29 minutes ago, dogmc said:

Tbf during the season Barnes quinell etc often talked about Seymour as a lions test starter. They also mentioned hogg Russell Watson grey and price throughout the pro12 n Europe for lions. It's only in the crazy universe of Warren ball that having failed to convert try scoring chances in 1st test that the top try scorer of the tour is ignored but an untested midfield combo is chucked in. The sru has always been guilty of shitebaggery (jj being banned for months after calcutta cup shenanigans whilst English gave Richards a slap on wrist, looking to disband 7s side just as it makes real progress etc etc) but there should have been more furore about the lions squad. Our 90 slam n 99 title were won on back of a spine of players who had participated with distinction in the 89 n 97 lions tours. It's a great developmental tool (OK it's not under gatland tbf) when done right and the sru should have been more vocal instead of just counting the ££'s. It's good to see guys like Beattie tait and grant saying their piece. Just be nice to see more from higher up the food chain. No way the irfu would have allowed their players to be ignored like this if they'd only had 2 guys picked for squad and none in tests.

 

 

Given the lineups so far, it's fairly obvious Hogg would have played at full back.  Williams is Hogg-lite.  Russell, I'm with you.  He'd have added a change of approach, certainly.  Watson, Gray (either of them) and Price would be nowhere near the starting XV given the strength in depth of their positions. Price is miles off being a Lion right now.  Seymour has played very well on tour, and should certainly be on the bench.  In short, there is only really one Scot who could lay claim to being the best player in his position, and he got injured and flew home.  WP Nel should be on tour, but he's been hurt for a year.  If he hadn't been, he'd be in the front row for the next test.

Gatland's a stale coach. But there's no way that this squad reflects an anti-Scottish agenda, or the death of the Lions.  It's just a bad coaching appointment.  

Hogg and Nel, both being fit, would be in the starting XV.  Seymour has played his way into contention, perhaps, and Russell could have gone with a different coach.  I think it's hard to make a case for any other Scottish starters.  

[dogmc]

Awj v grey and sw v Watson aren't even close. Watson and grey are miles better than they guys selected to start. Other players are obviously in the mix in those positions (lawes Henderson robshsaw tipuric barclay etc) but as a straight head to head to two Scottish guys are head n shoulders better than the guys starting.

[Dunning1874]

2 hours ago, dogmc said:

Awj v grey and sw v Watson aren't even close. Watson and grey are miles better than they guys selected to start. Other players are obviously in the mix in those positions (lawes Henderson robshsaw tipuric barclay etc) but as a straight head to head to two Scottish guys are head n shoulders better than the guys starting.

Aye, that's the main issue. I think Savage Henry's right when he says that Hogg and Nel are the only two Scots you'd put in a strongest XV discounting injury - you could also make arguments for Seymour on form and Russell as the best option for a more expansive, attacking gameplan - but looking at the XV that's been selected, J Gray and Watson would unquestionably be improvements on Gatland's Welsh mates.

That some other comparisons between players not on the tour and those starting are even more ridiculous (Launchbury v AWJ being the most obvious example) doesn't mean those Scottish players and Scottish fans as a whole aren't entirely justified in feeling aggrieved, and indeed being absolutely seething to the point of hoping for an AB whitewash.

[GAD]

Gatland is going to get slaughtered if the lions lose on Saturday, but he's brought it completely on himself through the squad he picked. I can actually understand why he's put in AWJ and Warburton. He needs a solid, hard tackling second row to help counter NZ's scrum and maul. The big problem is that the two best players that fit that mold are sitting at home whilst he took an off form AWJ and Kruis who had only recently returned from a serious injury lay off. 

With Warburton he needed someone to get to the breakdown quicker, slow NZ ball, and win turnovers. It's just, the guy he took to do that hasn't  actually been fit at all on the whole tour and again looks massively off form. Instead of someone like Watson, all the other back row players are basically the same, either smash it up ball carriers, or one dimensional hard men, except Tipuric, who Gatland inexplicably hates. 

As for Farrell at 12, for me he's massively overrated and he best game he's had so far on the tour has been the one where he played most of it at 12. There is a reason Jones always plays him at centre with a creative stand off inside him. Of course Gatland left Ford at home and treated Russell like a c**t.

Shite like T'eo, O'Mahony, Lawes and Nowell shouldn't be anywhere near the lions test team. These guys will be lucky to get regular games for England and Ireland when they go home, but here we are whilst better players sit on the beach. Anyway, maybe these guys will pull it out the bag and Gatland will be a hero. I've just got a feeling it's going to be more like 2005, with the bad defeats and the stories from disgruntled players following pretty soon after.

[John Lambies Doos]

Really looking forward to the players storys once this farce is over

[Doonhamer doon south]

From a lions perspective i hope farrell doesnt kick penalties because he is not the great kicker many people make him out to be. Sexton will do. 

[dogmc]

Gatland is going to get slaughtered if the lions lose on Saturday, but he's brought it completely on himself through the squad he picked. I can actually understand why he's put in AWJ and Warburton. He needs a solid, hard tackling second row to help counter NZ's scrum and maul. The big problem is that the two best players that fit that mold are sitting at home whilst he took an off form AWJ and Kruis who had only recently returned from a serious injury lay off. 
With Warburton he needed someone to get to the breakdown quicker, slow NZ ball, and win turnovers. It's just, the guy he took to do that hasn't  actually been fit at all on the whole tour and again looks massively off form. Instead of someone like Watson, all the other back row players are basically the same, either smash it up ball carriers, or one dimensional hard men, except Tipuric, who Gatland inexplicably hates. 
As for Farrell at 12, for me he's massively overrated and he best game he's had so far on the tour has been the one where he played most of it at 12. There is a reason Jones always plays him at centre with a creative stand off inside him. Of course Gatland left Ford at home and treated Russell like a c**t.
Shite like T'eo, O'Mahony, Lawes and Nowell shouldn't be anywhere near the lions test team. These guys will be lucky to get regular games for England and Ireland when they go home, but here we are whilst better players sit on the beach. Anyway, maybe these guys will pull it out the bag and Gatland will be a hero. I've just got a feeling it's going to be more like 2005, with the bad defeats and the stories from disgruntled players following pretty soon after.

Never mind 2005 its more like 1983!

[Distant Doonhamer]

I`m not a big rugby fan though I do enjoy watching the top level games.

With regard to the Lions I`m clearly not alone in thinking I`m somewhere between complete indifference and hoping they get absolutley hammered.

[Wee Bully]

21 hours ago, dogmc said:

 Our 90 slam n 99 title were won on back of a spine of players who had participated with distinction in the 89 n 97 lions tours. It's a great developmental tool (OK it's not under gatland tbf) when done right

 

 

I agree that it absolutely was vital in the old days (pre and very early professionalism).  These were guys who worked during the day, and trained a few nights a week before a game on Saturday followed by copious beers.  The Lions was the closest to being a professional that they would get - 5 or 6 weeks of just playing rugby with other great players. 

Now, it is probably counter-productive.  5 or 6 weeks of learning Welsh systems from the 2000's, changing style of play from what they are used to, and picking up injures after a long season.  I'm glad there are so few Scots there, as the Italy / Aus / Fiji games were so much more important for us. 

[dogmc]

I agree that it absolutely was vital in the old days (pre and very early professionalism).  These were guys who worked during the day, and trained a few nights a week before a game on Saturday followed by copious beers.  The Lions was the closest to being a professional that they would get - 5 or 6 weeks of just playing rugby with other great players. 
Now, it is probably counter-productive.  5 or 6 weeks of learning Welsh systems from the 2000's, changing style of play from what they are used to, and picking up injures after a long season.  I'm glad there are so few Scots there, as the Italy / Aus / Fiji games were so much more important for us. 

Yep is exactly right about the impact on fitness levels during amateur era. Saw some clown on Facebook claiming that finn would have learnt a lot from training with the lions. My response was I hope not. Last thing we need is to revert to warrenball. I think it will stand us in good stead having had so many players available to toony and even the Fiji defeat will have been a valuable experience.

[Wee Bully]

Just now, dogmc said:

Yep is exactly right about the impact on fitness levels during amateur era. Saw some clown on Facebook claiming that finn would have learnt a lot from training with the lions. My response was I hope not. Last thing we need is to revert to warrenball. I think it will stand us in good stead having had so many players available to toony and even the Fiji defeat will have been a valuable experience.

The only thing from the old days that might carry forward to today was that Scottish players came back from these Tours confident that they were as good as their Home Nations colleagues. 

[dogmc]

The only thing from the old days that might carry forward to today was that Scottish players came back from these Tours confident that they were as good as their Home Nations colleagues. 

Yeah fin Calder made that exact point after 89 tour.

[Wee Bully]

31 minutes ago, dogmc said:

Yeah fin Calder made that exact point after 89 tour.

I knew i was quoting someone, but couldn't remember who.

[Jaggy Snake]

You can get 16/1 for Itoje to score a try tomorrow. Seems too good to pass up.

[salmonbuddie]

I`m somewhere between complete indifference and hoping they get absolutley hammered.

I am a big rugby fan but this is me exactly.

[John Lambies Doos]

I am a big rugby fan but this is me exactly.

No me... no in between. Hope they get stuffed

[The_Kincardine]

19 hours ago, Distant Doonhamer said:

With regard to the Lions I`m clearly not alone in thinking I`m somewhere between complete indifference and hoping they get absolutley hammered.

' complete indifference' is too mild.  My only interest in this tour is for it to be finished.  I have a sense of regret.  I used to love Lions' Tours.