Junior football, what is the future?

[Peters Wyngarde]

13 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The Vale of Clyde manager was on the last voice of the juniors podcast.

He mentioned how he wanted the Sectional League Cup looked at. Because travelling to Vale of Leven midweek once every other year was too much.

I just used them as a club from the lower leagues, I've no idea if those clubs would want to move but they are the sort of clubs, essentially everyone in the bottom two leagues, that should be agitating for a move to the pyramid. The benefits of joining the senior leagues are clear to see for everyone with a rational passing interest in football.

[Black & Red Socks]

Fundamentally we have now reached the point we were always going to reach. The SJFA in its entirety will not be part of the Pyramid. The WRSJFA will not be part of the Pyramid as the SJFA have inextricably linked that possibility to the ERSJFA being part of the Pyramid too and that will not happen for the quite simple reason that the geography of the ERSJFA heavily overlaps that of an already functioning part of the Pyramid in the shape of the EoSFL, not to mention the ERSJFA containing teams who cannot play in an east feeder as they are north of the HL/LL boundary and, ergo, must be in a north feeder. All of the above, all of it, has been pointed out many, many times previously but has been wilfully ignored by too many for way, way too long. We are exactly where the SJFA hierarchy wants to be – the Juniors outwith the Pyramid but able to erroneously blame other parties.

 

The only way forward for ambitious WRSJFA clubs who see their future in the Pyramid and away from the small time, ‘it’s always been’ mentality of too many of those entwined with the SJFA is to communicate with each other, establish common ground and common understanding of the situation and then speak with the LL and the EoSFL for initial help and guidance in setting up a WoSFL. The ambitious south of Tay ERSJFA clubs, as stated often enough before, need only follow a path well traversed already and join the EoSFL. Ambitious north of Tay and NRSJFA clubs need do as their WRSJFA counterparts should and communicate with one another ahead of approaching the HL with a view to setting up a northern feeder to the HL. All of this takes both a degree of effort, thought and understanding on the part of these clubs but it can be done.

 

Waiting for someone else to do it all for them will result in the same outcome as we are looking at today.

[DiegoDiego]

Now that LongTimeLurker and Superbigal have played their roles over the last two years, who do we think is next season's stooge?

I always wondered if the name was Super Big Al, or Super Bi Gal.

I'm sure the west region clubs who are thinking of a move know who each other are. All they need to do is send a letter to the Lowland League and EoS saying that there are x number of teams interested in setting up a WoS league and could they meet to discuss the issue further. Then once the outline has taken shape release a statement detailing the proposal, saying how many teams are theoretically on board and inviting further applications.

Rod Petrie has been pretty terrible throughout this, but him throwing his hands up and walking away may have been exactly what was needed.

[LongTimeLurker]

55 minutes ago, Marshmallo said:

Now that LongTimeLurker and Superbigal have played their roles over the last two years, who do we think is next season's stooge?

^^^ probably in genuine need of psychiatric help.

Edited January 30, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[FairWeatherFan]

15 minutes ago, Peters Wyngarde said:

I just used them as a club from the lower leagues, I've no idea if those clubs would want to move but they are the sort of clubs, essentially everyone in the bottom two leagues, that should be agitating for a move to the pyramid. The benefits of joining the senior leagues are clear to see for everyone with a rational passing interest in football.

The bottom two leagues are where you will find those most resistant to moving as they don't see licencing as attainable and don't care about getting promoted beyond where they can already go in the juniors framework.

On the same podcast the manager mentioned the importance of a good pitch to attract players as they weren't paying anything. That last summer they did up the home dressing room. Then summer it will be the away dressing room.

They're basically operated by volunteers. There's no money for floodlights let alone all the other requirements they'd have to chase up. It's a similar situation at a lot of clubs in the lowest divisions.

You may have seen the Lugar fan complaining about lost the Sectional League Cup as those couple of paydays against the likes of Talbot keep the club ticking over.

It's the top two leagues that have to do the leading on this issue. If they even see it as such.

[Arthurlie1981]

The thing that might get things moving is the withdrawal of a Scottish Cup place to teams without a licence. Are Talbot wanting to take a financial hit or are they going to take the jump?

 

[glensmad]

11 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The bottom two leagues are where you will find those most resistant to moving as they don't see licencing as attainable and don't care about getting promoted beyond where they can already go in the juniors framework.

On the same podcast the manager mentioned the importance of a good pitch to attract players as they weren't paying anything. That last summer they did up the home dressing room. Then summer it will be the away dressing room.

They're basically operated by volunteers. There's no money for floodlights let alone all the other requirements they'd have to chase up. It's a similar situation at a lot of clubs in the lowest divisions.

You may have seen the Lugar fan complaining about lost the Sectional League Cup as those couple of paydays against the likes of Talbot keep the club ticking over.

It's the top two leagues that have to do the leading on this issue. If they even see it as such.

But the lower league teams won't need a licence and they won't need floodlights, and they won't need other requirements !!!!! It will be the status quo for them !

How many times do we need to say this ? 

Edited January 30, 2020 by glensmad

[Peters Wyngarde]

 

20 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The bottom two leagues are where you will find those most resistant to moving as they don't see licencing as attainable and don't care about getting promoted beyond where they can already go in the juniors framework.

On the same podcast the manager mentioned the importance of a good pitch to attract players as they weren't paying anything. That last summer they did up the home dressing room. Then summer it will be the away dressing room.

They're basically operated by volunteers. There's no money for floodlights let alone all the other requirements they'd have to chase up. It's a similar situation at a lot of clubs in the lowest divisions.

If only there was an example of a perennial lower league team in the West Juniors who were run by a small committee of volunteers who decided, after weighing up the information, to move to the higher leagues in the  Senior pyramid and DESPITE all these problems they faced somehow managed to put in floodlights, covered terracing and do up the dressing rooms.

If only...….

[FairWeatherFan]

6 minutes ago, glensmad said:

But the lower league teams won't need a licence and they won't need floodlights, and they won't need other requirements !!!!! It will be the status quo for them !

How many times do we need to say this ? 

So why agitate for a move if nothing changes for them?

The moves that started things in the East were by clubs with an eye on licencing and the other benefits like the youth league.

It wasn't started by clubs at the very bottom. Some of them came along and a lot of them have stayed junior.

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, Peters Wyngarde said:

 

If only there was an example of a perennial lower league team in the West Juniors who were run by a small committee of volunteers who decided, after weighing up the information, to move to the higher leagues in the  Senior pyramid and DESPITE all these problems they faced somehow managed to put in floodlights, covered terracing and do up the dressing rooms.

If only...….

I'm not the one needing convinced. I would be off applying to the SOSFL and hoping it leads to a change in line with the eosfl.

[LongTimeLurker]

3 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

The thing that might get things moving is the withdrawal of a Scottish Cup place to teams without a licence. Are Talbot wanting to take a financial hit or are they going to take the jump?

Will be interesting to see what the SFA Board's attitude will be on junior clubs getting licensed in the months and years ahead. They wanted the SJFA in the pyramid and are walking away from the PWG process now that isn't happening, so they probably don't see the SJFA as being the main culprit at this point (although the SJFA's lack of flexibility on a region-by-region approach is definitely still part of what created the impasse).

The floodlights requirement means there will be no massive influx if they accept applications at this point, and the associate membership that was brought in at the last AGM means there would be no voting rights for junior clubs and that the financial benefits that go with full SFA membership can easily be curtailed. All a license amounts to at that point is a test of whether clubs can cope with a midweek replay under floodlights so there is no danger of the Lochee vs Ayr scenario.

At least 12 clubs need to be interested in a breakaway league and the LL, EoS or SoS may have to be willing to facilitate it, so don't think the Scottish Cup issue is what breaks the impasse and it remains to be seen if anything can/will be done on a short timeline now the SFA have walked away. The time to make a difference will be at the next WRSJFA and SJFA AGMs. The clubs need to instruct their officeholders that they must adopt a different approach on pyramid entry. If they fail to kick up a fuss at that point things could easily stumble on as they are now for another 5-10 years.

[Dev]

2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The onus is on the clubs as it always has been.

You're in the SJFA you're not going to be in the pyramid, you're not going to access licencing and you're not going to access the u20s league.

It's up to Clydebank to follow through on their vote. Cumnock & Petershill to decide the pros and cons of licencing versus remaining junior. Girvan potentially losing their SFA membership and not being able to regain it outside the pyramid. Plus everyone else to consider their position.

WOSFL is attainable. Applying in numbers to the SoSFL and reshaping it into a west of Scotland league can be done.

 

 

I can see the NJFA saying goodbye to the Juniors and becoming a senior league soon.

This would leave the remains of the ERJFA (less more clubs switched to the EoS for 2020/21) and whoever remains in the WRJFA after clubs leave because they wish to follow the licencing route or because they have ambition or because they aren't comfortable with the SJFA/WRJFA hierarchy or because they are unhappy with the attitudes of a minority of clubs which exist to live in the past or etc etc.

Dissatisfied clubs can be pro-active. Just email or phone the local senior leagues. Contact details are on the SFA web site:

https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/media/5422/scottish-fa-handbook-2019-20.pdf

And they are here (from the SFA 2019/20 Handbook):

THE SCOTTISH LOWLAND FOOTBALL LEAGUE Secretary David Baxter, 23/5 South Elixa Place, Edinburgh, EH8 7PG Telephone(s) (M) 07952 534015 (H) 0131 652 1633 Email    secretary@slfl.co.uk Website    www.slfl.co.uk    

 THE EAST OF SCOTLAND FOOTBALL LEAGUE Secretary David Baxter, 23/5 South Elixa Place, Edinburgh, EH8 7PG Telephone(s) (M) 07952 534015 (H) 0131 652 1633 Email leaguesecretary@eastofscotlandfa.co.uk Website    www.eosfl.com

THE SOUTH OF SCOTLAND FOOTBALL LEAGUE Secretary Richard Osborne, 29 Castle Street, Dumfries DG1 1DL Telephone(s) (M) 07764 259 195; Email richard.osborne1962@googlemail.com Website www.southofscotlandfootballleague.co.uk 

Best of luck. Don't despair. Make it happen!

[Burnie_man]

9 minutes ago, Peters Wyngarde said:

 

If only there was an example of a perennial lower league team in the West Juniors who were run by a small committee of volunteers who decided, after weighing up the information, to move to the higher leagues in the  Senior pyramid and DESPITE all these problems they faced somehow managed to put in floodlights, covered terracing and do up the dressing rooms.

If only...….

We now have Oakley United starting work on floodlights, never the biggest of Junior clubs.  After Kelty's initial move, it was Dalkeith Thistle who got clubs thinking, followed by Edinburgh United and ourselves.  The small fry started it off in the east.

That said, I think it's a slightly different scenario in the west, there are more clubs "loyal" to the Juniors than in the east, and it will take a few of the bigger clubs to declare to get things moving.

[gaz5]

 
If only there was an example of a perennial lower league team in the West Juniors who were run by a small committee of volunteers who decided, after weighing up the information, to move to the higher leagues in the  Senior pyramid and DESPITE all these problems they faced somehow managed to put in floodlights, covered terracing and do up the dressing rooms.
If only...….

I see what you did there.

And thanks. [emoji106]

You won't find a single person attached to our club who, despite the hard work and long hours required to get us to where we are on the brink of licencing, doesn't think it was 100% the right thing to do and are absolutely delighted with how things are turning out.

We weighed up the risks, did our due diligence and unanimously took the decision. It could well end up being the defining moment in the clubs history.

We played Glencairn in a Friendly the other night, less than 2 years since we left the juniors. I'm sure, like most people who remember us as a junior club then turn up for a game, there was a level of surprise at the surroundings when they arrived at Westfield.

[Dev]

1 hour ago, Robert James said:

 

Given the SJFA's refusal to accept the West joining the pyramid en bloc (unless the East juniors  also join in tandem with them),  don't be surprised if the  current  entitlement of the three  East, North & West Region's junior champion clubs on-going participation in the Scottish Cup, becomes an agenda item to be reviewed, at the SFA's AGM this summer. 

Why should the entitlement of these 3 Non-SFA Member junior clubs, be retained  ?     

If clubs move into senior football then I think that it would be unwise to close the door on those which remain Junior or Amateur. 

Leave the door open so they may get a glimpse of what life is really like in the senior set up. Also give the NCL a place in the real "Big" Scottish Cup.

[Burnie_man]

4 minutes ago, Dev said:

If clubs move into senior football then I think that it would be unwise to close the door on those which remain Junior or Amateur. 

Leave the door open so they may get a glimpse of what life is really like in the senior set up. Also give the NCL a place in the real "Big" Scottish Cup.

To be fair, next season will be the 14th season of SJFA clubs "glimpsing" what life is like in the seniors.  Only a very few of those clubs moved into the seniors as a result.

We've seen Junior clubs make large sums of money out of the competition with no intention of engaging in the Pyramid, despite the door being open to them.

 

[Dev]

45 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The bottom two leagues are where you will find those most resistant to moving as they don't see licencing as attainable and don't care about getting promoted beyond where they can already go in the juniors framework.

On the same podcast the manager mentioned the importance of a good pitch to attract players as they weren't paying anything. That last summer they did up the home dressing room. Then summer it will be the away dressing room.

They're basically operated by volunteers. There's no money for floodlights let alone all the other requirements they'd have to chase up. It's a similar situation at a lot of clubs in the lowest divisions.

You may have seen the Lugar fan complaining about lost the Sectional League Cup as those couple of paydays against the likes of Talbot keep the club ticking over.

It's the top two leagues that have to do the leading on this issue. If they even see it as such.

But don't forget that clubs rise and fall up and down leagues over a period of time and things change. Just look at Dunipace and Camelon. It shows that there are ambitious clubs at all levels and the west is no exception.. 

[honestman54]

15 minutes ago, Dev said:

I can see the NJFA saying goodbye to the Juniors and becoming a senior league soon.

This would leave the remains of the ERJFA (less more clubs switched to the EoS for 2020/21) and whoever remains in the WRJFA after clubs leave because they wish to follow the licencing route or because they have ambition or because they aren't comfortable with the SJFA/WRJFA hierarchy or because they are unhappy with the attitudes of a minority of clubs which exist to live in the past or etc etc.

Dissatisfied clubs can be pro-active. Just email or phone the local senior leagues. Contact details are on the SFA web site:

 

https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/media/5422/scottish-fa-handbook-2019-20.pdf

And they are here (from the SFA 2019/20 Handbook):

THE SCOTTISH LOWLAND FOOTBALL LEAGUE Secretary David Baxter, 23/5 South Elixa Place, Edinburgh, EH8 7PG Telephone(s) (M) 07952 534015 (H) 0131 652 1633 Email    secretary@slfl.co.uk Website    www.slfl.co.uk    

 THE EAST OF SCOTLAND FOOTBALL LEAGUE Secretary David Baxter, 23/5 South Elixa Place, Edinburgh, EH8 7PG Telephone(s) (M) 07952 534015 (H) 0131 652 1633 Email leaguesecretary@eastofscotlandfa.co.uk Website    www.eosfl.com

THE SOUTH OF SCOTLAND FOOTBALL LEAGUE Secretary Richard Osborne, 29 Castle Street, Dumfries DG1 1DL Telephone(s) (M) 07764 259 195; Email richard.osborne1962@googlemail.com Website www.southofscotlandfootballleague.co.uk 

Best of luck. Don't despair. Make it happen!

Maybe Clydebank could get the ball rolloing

[Burnie_man]

15 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

 They wanted the SJFA in the pyramid and are walking away from the PWG process now that isn't happening, so they probably don't see the SJFA as being the main culprit at this point (although the SJFA's lack of flexibility on a region-by-region approach is definitely still part of what created the impasse).

You're always looking to point the finger towards the LL/EoS, when it is obvious to everyone that the SJFA's complete inflexibility and refusal to compromise is why there has been no progress in 2 years.

The EoS also initiated contact with the ERJFA and 3 meetings have taken place, but there has been no compromises on the ERJFA's part, they wanted tier 6 entry and nothing less.

If the SFA want to identify a "culprit"  (I very much doubt they even care), then it's fairly obvious.

[LongTimeLurker]

3 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

To be fair, next season will be the 14th season of SJFA clubs "glimpsing" what life is like in the seniors.  Only a very few of those clubs moved into the seniors as a result.

We've seen Junior clubs make large sums of money out of the competition with no intention of engaging in the Pyramid, despite the door being open to them.

If clubs will soon need to be licensed to gain entry through winning a competition, it implies that having a licence is probably no longer enough to get into the preliminary rounds of the Scottish Cup at the community board level of the game. The change you are claiming is on the cards could also be aimed at stopping EoS clubs like Broxburn and Penicuik from having a big pay day.