George Floyd/Black Lives Matter Protests

[Benjamin_Nevis]

Somebody come and collect their da'. He's comparing political beliefs to human rights.

Fair fucks for actually reading that screed of absolute eye-rape.

[Shotgun]

24 minutes ago, ali_91 said:

Ignoring the blatantly racist banner last night in order to not offend the racists is some take, fair play. 

#racistslivesmatter

i would love to have some of the yer da’s on this thread sit down with a group of WWII veterans and explain to them that by physically fighting Fascists, they were anti-free speech, that they were intolerant, that THEY were the true fascists. 

[Wee-Bey]

[Homer Thompson]

3 hours ago, Mr Waldo said:

Yes I did. People were taken to court because they were asked to do something against their religion / beliefs. They won, but it was close to setting a terrible precedent in restricting peoples right to choose.

I am pretty sure they will also say 'racist' as long at it alines with their own opinion. Probably call the people who did it 'fascists' as well.

I think that is exactly something that needs decided.  That is the point.  Looking at the material put out by BLM in America, the British BLM and BLM UK. To me, apart from their headline, they seem a bit extreme in many areas. I don't like political extremes, can I call them prejudiced?        We can agree 'kill all blacks' is hate speech.

ETA - Yes. I did. If someone wants to refuse business because of their beliefs , that's fine by me.  What about an 'I love the EDL' cake? Or a  'MAGA' cake, or a 'Confederare flag' cake?  To me, the baker decides, to you, who decides? Ben Mee ?      I would not class that banner is hate speech.

ETETA. I like Pep, but I am not sure he is qualified to decide on restricting what someone can and cannot say.

ETETETA. So? So? Many many people will not. The police are obliged to investigate any complaint, especially in these times.  How many 'Police are racist' marches would there be if they didn't? 

Oh, good. We've moved on from racist apologists to trying to claim a clearly racist slogan isnt racist.

Is that progress? Either way ...

[Hillonearth]

4 hours ago, welshbairn said:

I bet he'd never hired one. I was amazed by the separation of lives in Georgia. Savannah is 55% black but I saw about 3 in the touristy centre where all the investment goes. A seaside town nearby where I stayed it was surprising to see a black family on the beach one day having a paddle, none in the bars and restaurants. I suppose they learn early they're not welcome, and the stereotypes stay the same, on both sides probably.

Very similar in Virginia - although it's quite far north on the map it can be pretty far south in terms of attitude. A mate of mine was working over there for a while and he lived in a middle-class area which was almost exclusively white. One of his black workmates invited us over for dinner one night - the place where he lived looked exactly like where my mate stayed but was almost exclusively black - we went out to a bar later on that night and were the only white people in the place...it's like the two races have chosen to live completely separate existences and only interact when it's necessary.

 

[Bohemian]

50 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

Very similar in Virginia - although it's quite far north on the map it can be pretty far south in terms of attitude. A mate of mine was working over there for a while and he lived in a middle-class area which was almost exclusively white. One of his black workmates invited us over for dinner one night - the place where he lived looked exactly like where my mate stayed but was almost exclusively black - we went out to a bar later on that night and were the only white people in the place...it's like the two races have chosen to live completely separate existences and only interact when it's necessary.

 

Sounds like Belfast or Derry ha. 

Hasn't America for the most part always been like that.. The Irish, Italians, Black, Hispanic, Korean etc all kinda had their own neighbourhood's..  its changed down the years more to Black, White, Hispanic?

My Uncle lives in Woodlawn in Yonkers NY it's nearly entirely Italian and Irish with a small Jewish community.. practically 100% white 

[Guest]

Remember America is a country founded on chasing out anyone who wasnt white and held zoos with people of different ethnicities as exhibitions. I hope it does happen but I can't see that shit show ever changing its ways.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Only if you decide to take the gun out the holster.
You're scenario is actually more dangerous, for the policeman, in non-armed countries
1) You dont have a gun. He knows you dont have a gun
2) He might have a gun. You don't know whether he does or not. He does know. So already the information gap is in his favour.
3) He might be a champion boxer or martial arts expert. He might just be hard as nails. You don't know. He knows his own skills/levels of hardasnailsness.
So, the question is still there - how do non-armed police deal with the exact same situations?

2) More neds have guns in the UK than police officers do. If someone has a gun or deadly weapon they are supposed to be contained until afo’s get there. Its becoming more prevalent and even crude home made guns are finding their way into the streets.
3)This is an ‘unknown risk’ aggressive/suspect people are either one of 2 risk levels, ‘high’ or ‘unknown’ , unknown is considered the highest level of risk.
4) Generally speaking British police officers are more likely to use their communication skills, to chat someone down from a level, sometimes if thats not appropriate for whatever reason then they just need to get hands on, get control and the quicker someone is under control the safer the situation is.

I dont think that we’ve reached a level whereby British police need to be routinely armed (besides NI). I think with the reduction in mental health beds and the increasing prevalence of things like drug induced psychosis etc then there is a higher risk to the public. People affected by excited delirium are very dangerous, drugs like cocaine, spice, ecstasy etc can cause it, meaning people can have extraordinary levels of strength and be impervious to pain etc, these people are the ones you see who sometimes take 8 police officers to safely restrain etc, god help us if Crystal Meth/PCP catches on over here.
I do think the incident in Wishaw the other week shows that police officers are poorly equipped with nippy water and a stick (one of the injured police officers was unable to fight off the attacker with the meat cleaver because his arm had been badly damaged, meaning he had no means to defend himself as he couldnt use his baton on his weak hand), surely taser would be reasonable, i’d rather be hit with a taser than full force with a baton or bean bag shotguns (not rubber bullets) so that people armed with knives or weapons can be safely and non lethally dealt with at a safe distance. I dont think there are a majority of police officers who would want to be routinely armed in the UK.

[tamthebam]

2 hours ago, Empty It said:

Remember America is a country founded on chasing out anyone who wasnt white and held zoos with people of different ethnicities as exhibitions. I hope it does happen but I can't see that shit show ever changing its ways.

It wasn't just the US...

Somali village, Marine Gardens, Portobello, 1910.

[Guest JTS98]

9 hours ago, Aladdin said:

The protests are a watershed moment in terms of maintaining awareness of the problem until something is done about it.  Theres been numerous similar killings by the US police in the past, a few weeks of outrage on Twitter and then nothing more until the next time it happens.  Similar to the issue of gun control, in terms of nothing being done, except this time there is cross community support and momentum behind the movement.  Couple with the fact its election year, now is the time to get political support and get results.

 It would also appear that there were a fairly large number of white Americans who didnt fully appreciate the issues black Americans faced but are now supportive of change.  What the exact changes are, I dont know, but I would expect increased representation of black Americans on the police forces and a demilitarisation of the police wouldnt hurt.

 

I'm not sure how different this is to the Rodney King incident in terms of reaction. That didn't lead to long-term change.

A lot of people looking in from the outside will just see looting and violence. The Rodney King beating wasn't used to enact real change. Maybe if it had been, things would be genuinely changing now. The concern at the moment is that the arguments are the same. The police shouldn't be racist. They should be nice.

That doesn't work.

[Old Pack]

I'm not sure how different this is to the Rodney King incident in terms of reaction. That didn't lead to long-term change.

A lot of people looking in from the outside will just see looting and violence. The Rodney King beating wasn't used to enact real change. Maybe if it had been, things would be genuinely changing now. The concern at the moment is that the arguments are the same. The police shouldn't be racist. They should be nice.

That doesn't work.

The stats say anybody is fare game to be killed by the police in the USA no matter your creed , colour or legality.

[RandomGuy.]

"White lives matter" is the equivalent of a 5 year old trying to steal their parents attention because his twin sister is getting attention after falling and banging her puss.

Its pathetic.

[Guest JTS98]

36 minutes ago, Old Pack said:

The stats say anybody is fare game to be killed by the police in the USA no matter your creed , colour or legality.

Two points there.

Firstly, that is and isn't true. There are about ten million arrests in the USA every year and around 1,000 killings by the police. If you assume that some of those deaths are justified, criminals threatening the police or bystanders etc, then the actual chances of anyone who is not an immediate threat to public safety being killed by the police during arrest are tiny. Much bigger than in the UK, for example, but tiny all the same. Your chances of being killed by American police outside of an arrest situation are non-existent. The vast majority of Americans will not be killed by the police or ever know anyone who is killed by the police.

Above zero is too many, but I think some people have the idea that American police are cruising around shooting black people at random. The numbers tell us that is simply not the case.

Secondly, while it is true that American police kill a lot more citizens of their own country (of all races) than other police forces do, the inequalities in American society mean that this clearly affects the black population more, since they are more likely to be involved in crime and more likely to come into contact with the police. This makes it a race issue, but I think a lot of people are failing (or refusing?) to look at the root of the race issue. It can't be solved by telling people racism is bad.

[NotThePars]

The concern at the moment is that the arguments are the same. The police shouldn't be racist. They should be nice.

That doesn't work.

 

I’m not sure where you’re looking but the argument has mutated into abolition/ defunding the police. You’ve been arguing against this liberal straw man that people are protesting to “raise awareness” when the demands are far greater than that and the critiques deeper than “racism is bad”.

[Guest JTS98]

12 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

 

I’m not sure where you’re looking but the argument has mutated into abolition/ defunding the police. You’ve been arguing against this liberal straw man that people are protesting to “raise awareness” when the demands are far greater than that and the critiques deeper than “racism is bad”.

Abolishing/defunding the police is one of the worst public policy arguments made in the history of the western world.

A ludicrous over-reaction that completely misses the point of the problem. It's a horrendous idea.

I've only skimmed the news yesterday and today, but surely nobody of any standing is suggesting this?

Also, it's not a straw man when you literally ask someone what he wants done and then argue against the suggestion he gives you. As I did.

Edited June 24, 2020 by JTS98

[Mr Waldo]

20 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Abolishing/defunding the police is one of the worst public policy arguments made in the history of the western world.

A ludicrous over-reaction that completely misses the point of the problem. It's a horrendous idea.

I've only skimmed the news yesterday and today, but surely nobody of any standing is suggesting this?

 

Black Lives Matter could be clearer in explaining exactly what they mean, or maybe that's their plan.

UK video.

[Mr. Brightside]

Defunding the police and abolishing the police are completely different things.

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, Mr. Brightside said:

Defunding the police and abolishing the police are completely different things.

Indeed. Both dreadful ideas though.

[Guest JTS98]

8 minutes ago, Mr Waldo said:

Black Lives Matter could be clearer in explaining exactly what they mean, or maybe that's their plan.

UK video.

There is absolutely no sound intellectual basis for this. It is absolute lunacy.

I've read plenty of editorials and articles about this. I've watched that video and read the link.

These people are stupid. It's an idea so bad it's hard to know where to start. State monopoly on violence is a very important pillar of our society.

[madwullie]

17 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Indeed. Both dreadful ideas though.

In some American cities the police are driving around in military hardware. It's hard to argue that mine proof trucks are a necessary part of policing a community. Sure I read somewhere that the nypd has something like in the top 10 highest military spending on the planet (that might be wrong) 

Demilitarising the police would go a long way towards making them view themselves less as soldiers. Some of the training videos I've seen of the US police aren't a kick in the arse off army training either. Sure it might not stop them from being racist, but it would surely help stop them being so trigger happy. 

Edited June 24, 2020 by madwullie