The Gender Debate

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, f_c_dundee said:

 

I'm not dismissing you with name calling etc

I didn't even mention you. 

[Trogdor]

I stopped reading a couple of pages back, not sure my eyes will ever recover 

[MrWorldwideJr]

1 hour ago, Suspect Device said:

Seems to be that it's only one side of this 'debate' that gets banned. Which is fairly shit, even if I don't agree with their posts. The moderating in here is not even handed.

The only people who have been banned for their posts in this thread got banned for posting obvious bigotry (being trans is a mental illness etc.), they all also have a long posting history in this (and often other) threads which makes it very clear that their posts were not misunderstandings or innocent mistakes, they just don't like trans people.

People would get banned from this forum for posting obvious racism or obvious homophobia. Transphobia should be no different.

This entire thread is a long form debate on whether being trans is even a real thing and whether trans people should get to keep the rights they already have, so lets not pretend that anti-trans viewpoints are being oppressed here.

Edited May 21, 2023 by MrWorldwideJr

[Johnny Martin]

50 minutes ago, Suspect Device said:

Not sure I agree with getting banned for being a tedious bawbag.

There are plenty of them on here not banned.  Including me. 

 

Seems to be that it's only one side of this 'debate' that gets banned. Which is fairly shit, even if I don't agree with their posts. The moderating in here is not even handed.

Spot on.

If tedious bawbaggery was a bannable offence, then there'd be plenty in the line before Thorongil.

As you say, it's not even handed at all.

Hopefully admin reconsider this decision and bring Thorongil back.

[Suspect Device]

52 minutes ago, BTFD said:

You'll have no mates from the other forum left at this rate.

Not sure I'd call him a mate. He's a Tim FFS.

[welshbairn]

16 minutes ago, Johnny Martin said:

Spot on.

If tedious bawbaggery was a bannable offence, then there'd be plenty in the line before Thorongil.

As you say, it's not even handed at all.

Hopefully admin reconsider this decision and bring Thorongil back.

Excellent...

On 27/01/2022 at 12:43, Benjamin_Nevis said:

You could pretty much end the thread here tbh. However I congratulate @jamamafegan on creating a useful herding pen for beardy incels, AlbaDas and various other bigots to come in and post up utterly fake concerns over rapists dressing as women to get into women's toilets. 

 

[welshbairn]

Build it, and they will come. 

[RuMoore]

The moderators up all night  haunted by this face .

[BFTD]

They're still waiting for Dawson Park Boy's paperwork to arrive.

Yes, yes, pouring one out for our dear departed friend, unfairly banned for his entirely reasonable posts, etc etc.

[andyg83]

This thread is wild:-)

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, RuMoore said:

The moderators up all night  haunted by this face .

Probably not, from his Free Speech Union FAQs.

Quote

Can you help?

I’ve been banned from a social media platform. Can you help?

Probably not. Social media platforms are private companies and as such are free to set their own terms of service and ban you if you ignore them. 

A lot of people are criticising me on a social media platform. Can you help?

If you’ve said or done something that many people disagree with or disapprove of, they’re perfectly entitled to criticise you. That is them simply exercising their free speech.

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by welshbairn

[Miguel Sanchez]

2 hours ago, MrWorldwideJr said:

The only people who have been banned for their posts in this thread got banned for posting obvious bigotry (being trans is a mental illness etc.), they all also have a long posting history in this (and often other) threads which makes it very clear that their posts were not misunderstandings or innocent mistakes, they just don't like trans people.

People would get banned from this forum for posting obvious racism or obvious homophobia. Transphobia should be no different.

This entire thread is a long form debate on whether being trans is even a real thing and whether trans people should get to keep the rights they already have, so lets not pretend that anti-trans viewpoints are being oppressed here.

The dots on this post tell quite a tale.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

13 minutes ago, Miguel Sanchez said:

The dots on this post tell quite a tale.

Good guy.

W**k.

Good guy.

W**k.

.......

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by DeeTillEhDeh

[BFTD]

25 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Probably not, from The Free Speech Union FAQs.

No, that's not right at all. I have the right to rock up to whatever forum I desire, say whatever nonsense I fancy, and everyone must pay attention.

How on Earth people get this idea, while reality continually demonstrating it not to be true, is beyond me. It's like the Freeman of the Land who keep asserting their right not to be bound by law, yet somehow keep being bound by law.

[f_c_dundee]

2 hours ago, TxRover said:

Nope, it’s not a straw man, because I’m simply pointing out the inconsistency of your statement. The argument you make is that there is a point at which this becomes irrelevant (around the 1% figure that is not accurate by all studies, due to a dearth of reporting of a number of incidents…but, still, 1%, fine). Since the “trans issue” you are batting around is below the 1% threshold, but your own argument, it can be effectively ignored.

Meanwhile, you press forward on the conflating sex/gender in deliberate ignorance of all the documented differentiation…and then you admit to misgendering. You are a bigot, end of story.

My whole entire argument is that men cannot become women, gender is feelings, sex is reality. I'm not conflating them, they are different things - it's trans rights activism that has attempted to conflate them and replace sex in legislation and policies with the meaningless gender word. (Thus also ignoring the feelings of gay and lesbian people who define themselves as same sex attracted.)  Only a very small proportion of people believe they have a separate sex and a gender 'identity' like a soul. Most just go about being men and women, that's not bigoted. It is in fact I believe an opinion which is worthy of respect in a democratic society  
 

No matter how you feel and how much cross sex hormone treatment and plastic surgery you have, it really doesn't move you into the opposite sex category. On a day to day basis people can crack on and express themselves and live as whoever they wish, but allowing anyone to self ID as the opposite sex on a much larger scale that was ever imagined by the people drafting the ill thought out GRA bill in 2004, is not a neutral act.  Words have meanings and unforeseen effects on safeguarding in various situations cannot be ignored because 'it hardly ever happens'.  People have been trying to be kind, because they were told it was just like supporting same sex marriage rights. A load of them didn't want to look like massive homophobes and maybe make themselves look better after past lack of support. Another load just spent no time at all listening to women or indeed doing any research of their own at all when it was all fed to them.

 

I don't get what you mean about at 1% it becomes irrelevant?  I just posted the crime stats to show that the disproportionate risk to women had to be considered. My threshold for men in women's prisons or anywhere else where sex matters is 0, really. 

[jimbaxters]

3 hours ago, Johnny Martin said:

Spot on.

If tedious bawbaggery was a bannable offence, then there'd be plenty in the line before Thorongil.

As you say, it's not even handed at all.

Hopefully admin reconsider this decision and bring Thorongil back.

Was that the kissing game we used to play at school? Bee bawbaggery.

[TxRover]

1 hour ago, f_c_dundee said:

My whole entire argument is that men cannot become women, gender is feelings, sex is reality. I'm not conflating them, they are different things - it's trans rights activism that has attempted to conflate them and replace sex in legislation and policies with the meaningless gender word. (Thus also ignoring the feelings of gay and lesbian people who define themselves as same sex attracted.)  Only a very small proportion of people believe they have a separate sex and a gender 'identity' like a soul. Most just go about being men and women, that's not bigoted. It is in fact I believe an opinion which is worthy of respect in a democratic society  
 

No matter how you feel and how much cross sex hormone treatment and plastic surgery you have, it really doesn't move you into the opposite sex category. On a day to day basis people can crack on and express themselves and live as whoever they wish, but allowing anyone to self ID as the opposite sex on a much larger scale that was ever imagined by the people drafting the ill thought out GRA bill in 2004, is not a neutral act.  Words have meanings and unforeseen effects on safeguarding in various situations cannot be ignored because 'it hardly ever happens'.  People have been trying to be kind, because they were told it was just like supporting same sex marriage rights. A load of them didn't want to look like massive homophobes and maybe make themselves look better after past lack of support. Another load just spent no time at all listening to women or indeed doing any research of their own at all when it was all fed to them.

 

I don't get what you mean about at 1% it becomes irrelevant?  I just posted the crime stats to show that the disproportionate risk to women had to be considered. My threshold for men in women's prisons or anywhere else where sex matters is 0, really. 

Let’s take a couple of issues here:

1) The phrase “opposite sex”. Since even a bigot like yourself must admit the presence of the “intersex”, this phrase is a nonstarter. It’s time to do a bit of self-study.

2) “Only a very small proportion” is a giveaway, as you are, rather than accepting any number, minimizing what you see as the “problem”. The actual number is somewhere in the 1-2% range. Interestingly, the numbers show a steady increase over time, very much in conjunction with plastic contamination in the environment. There is serious research going on about a possible link.

3) Your threshold comment makes it clear you worry in one direction only, hardly a fair nor a reasonable position.

 

In my perception of your posts and arguments, you are a narrow minded boor who feels that your position is correct, and anyone else can pound sand. This places you firmly in the realm of bigotry and unreasoning hatred. Perhaps counseling might assist you in understanding what it really is you fear here, but meanwhile your continuing tilting at windmills here is only hurting your own mental well-being.

[TONTROOPER]

This probably seems a tad simplistic.......human beings are born with either male/female genitalia.

Sometimes this doesnt happen.....distressful for the individual particularly when they enter puberty.

Dysphoria should be...and I hope is...regarded as something we need to get better at....not only treating...but recognising.

[f_c_dundee]

4 hours ago, TxRover said:

Let’s take a couple of issues here:

1) The phrase “opposite sex”. Since even a bigot like yourself must admit the presence of the “intersex”, this phrase is a nonstarter. It’s time to do a bit of self-study.

2) “Only a very small proportion” is a giveaway, as you are, rather than accepting any number, minimizing what you see as the “problem”. The actual number is somewhere in the 1-2% range. Interestingly, the numbers show a steady increase over time, very much in conjunction with plastic contamination in the environment. There is serious research going on about a possible link.

3) Your threshold comment makes it clear you worry in one direction only, hardly a fair nor a reasonable position.

 

In my perception of your posts and arguments, you are a narrow minded boor who feels that your position is correct, and anyone else can pound sand. This places you firmly in the realm of bigotry and unreasoning hatred. Perhaps counseling might assist you in understanding what it really is you fear here, but meanwhile your continuing tilting at windmills here is only hurting your own mental well-being.

1) No, there are still 2 sexes.  The existence of differences in development for a miniscule minority of individuals is not a reason to pretend there are not.  Again, those with DSDs have repeatedly asked not to be used as a gotcha like you are doing - try studying yourself.  These are males and females with conditions which are specific to males or females. (it may be difficult to determine in a handful of babies due to mosaicism or other vanishingly rare conditions - but still nothing to do with being trans)

2) I am not minimising it, just stating that again, you have to see how changes will affect everyone - you are the ones telling me that it is a tiny number ffs!

3) Also No. I should just C&P here really. "People unhappy in their bodies, adult or child deserve support and they deserve to be protected from discrimination, as they are in the UK by law. We don't have to all pretend we have a gender identity too though, or accept every single person as the sex they declare, in every situation, no matter what. That's not a human right, that's a demand." 

I also care deeply about detransitioners, whom you choose to minimise. The brutal and non-reversible things that have been done to mainly young people is heart-breaking.  The fact that the young people or their parents were told that they were a high suicide risk based on inflated stats is also awful.  They should be given psychological support to feel better about themselves as a first line, not medication IMO.

4 hours ago, TONTROOPER said:

This probably seems a tad simplistic.......human beings are born with either male/female genitalia.

Sometimes this doesnt happen.....distressful for the individual particularly when they enter puberty.

Dysphoria should be...and I hope is...regarded as something we need to get better at....not only treating...but recognising.

Sorry but you are very confused.  People with differences/disorders in sexual development are not what we are talking about.

This is indeed very distressing, but is nothing to do with the vast majority of trans people - see above - many of these individuals do not want always to be dragged into this. 

Not that many people with DSDs even identify as trans - in fact from the DSD families uk website:

"There are currently no meaningful studies on this but experts tell us, that of the estimated 130 babies that are born in the UK each year with genitals that look different, 1/130 or 1/260 (one per year/ one every two years) might experience the feeling that they have been given the wrong gender."

Dysphoria is the *feeling* that you are uncomfortable or distressed. Gender dysphoria being *distress about your sexed body*.

"Intersex" has been added in to LGBTQIA etc to make it all look more scientific, really. Although some people still use the term intersex or identify as trans and have a DSD, they are not the majority.

See also the image from when this was discussed in relation to the census and Scotland's DSD group asked not to be included:

Edited May 22, 2023 by f_c_dundee

[TxRover]

35 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

1) No, there are still 2 sexes.  The existence of differences in development for a miniscule minority of individuals is not a reason to pretend there are not.  Again, those with DSDs have repeatedly asked not to be used as a gotcha like you are doing - try studying yourself.  These are males and females with conditions which are specific to males or females. (it may be difficult to determine in a handful of babies due to mosaicism or other vanishingly rare conditions - but still nothing to do with being trans)

2) I am not minimising it, just stating that again, you have to see how changes will affect everyone - you are the ones telling me that it is a tiny number ffs!

3) Also No. I should just C&P here really. "People unhappy in their bodies, adult or child deserve support and they deserve to be protected from discrimination, as they are in the UK by law. We don't have to all pretend we have a gender identity too though, or accept every single person as the sex they declare, in every situation, no matter what. That's not a human right, that's a demand." 

I also care deeply about detransitioners, whom you choose to minimise. The brutal and non-reversible things that have been done to mainly young people is heart-breaking.  The fact that the young people or their parents were told that they were a high suicide risk based on inflated stats is also awful.  They should be given psychological support to feel better about themselves as a first line, not medication IMO.

Sorry but you are very confused.  People with differences/disorders in sexual development are not what we are talking about.

This is indeed very distressing, but is nothing to do with the vast majority of trans people - see above - many of these individuals do not want always to be dragged into this. 

Not that many people with DSDs even identify as trans - in fact from the DSD families uk website:

"There are currently no meaningful studies on this but experts tell us, that of the estimated 130 babies that are born in the UK each year with genitals that look different, 1/130 or 1/260 (one per year/ one every two years) might experience the feeling that they have been given the wrong gender."

Dysphoria is the *feeling* that you are uncomfortable or distressed. Gender dysphoria being *distress about your sexed body*.

"Intersex" has been added in to LGBTQIA etc to make it all look more scientific, really. Although some people still use the term intersex or identify as trans and have a DSD, they are not the majority.

See also the image from when this was discussed in relation to the census and Scotland's DSD group asked not to be included:

Once again you wave off a group of people here and there as too small to matter…so let’s try this. How many people are you willing to sacrifice to keep your “beliefs” intact? With your position, people will doe…how many is acceptable? Give us a number so we can understand.