The Gender Debate

[Leith Green]

15 minutes ago, strichener said:

The SNP were not sufficiently comfortable with their position that they allowed a free vote.  Regarding the assisted suicide bill, they stated at the time that as it was a matter of conscience for individual members.  A bill with far more implications than the one just passed.

The assisted dying bill was a members bill introduced by a Lib Dem MSP.

 

[Boo Khaki]

28 minutes ago, strichener said:

I get all that, my comment was specifically regarding your reference to the lack of public dissent to the legislation.

The SNP were not sufficiently comfortable with their position that they allowed a free vote.  Regarding the assisted suicide bill, they stated at the time that as it was a matter of conscience for individual members.  A bill with far more implications than the one just passed.

You are right of course that the Government did not have the assisted dying in their manifesto and were clear that they did not support the right to die.  Take from that what you will about the SNP government's moral compass.

Well there's the optics to consider of declaring a stated policy goal through two elections, finally getting to the stage whereby it's down to a final vote, then telling your MSP's 'bleh, whatever, just vote with your conscience'. 

While I can totally understand why many people take the view this absolutely should have been a vote of conscience, and I'm not entirely convinced it shouldn't have been myself, I'd also like to think that if I did indeed cast my vote on the back of a manifesto promise, that when it does come to the point of getting it over the line after years of delay, that the party will honour that pledge and repay me for my vote by doing everything within their capacity to ensure the pledge becomes reality. 

I get single issue politics, and I also get why other people take the view that it's idiotic to decide everything on the back of a single issue, but then I have voted SNP mainly because I see them as a means to an end and would be beyond livid if they left decisions on future referenda to a conscience vote. I remember being bloody furious with New Labour for campaigning on the promise of a total blanket foxhunting ban, then completely abandoning any attempt to bring that about once they got into office, and while that seems like a rather trivial issue now, it infuriated a whole load of people at the time and it was a factor in why they became completely sceptical of Blair from that moment on. I did not vote Labour, but I was tempted to on the back of that single policy, and had I given them my vote I'd have gladly swung for the kernt considering how quickly they rowed back from that once in government. Ok, not quite the same circumstance, but I'm just painting a picture of why it can be fundamentally important for some people that a government goes all out to pursue stated policy and why a conscience vote under the circumstances would constitute an egregious betrayal.

The number of people in Scotland who really felt so strongly that they would have abandoned the SNP, Green, Labour, or LibDem party had they not voted for this bill as a bloc is probably quite small, but I've no doubt there are some. You just need to look at how invested in this the people standing outside Holyrood at every significant point were. The fact they are single issue obsessives doesn't mean their expectation of getting what they voted for is any less valid than anyone else's, and it doesn't invalidate their right to be bloody angry if the party they support does not do everything within its power to repay them for their vote.

I also think that had Labour actually just stated that yes, despite the defeat of the amendments they were still going to vote for the bill itself, then SNP/Green may well have been a bit less likely to whip. I think they still would have but being certain that Labour were not going to pull a last-minute grandstanding stunt and basically knife the SG in the back would have made things a little less tense. Labour could have made this far closer than it was in the end if they wanted to, and while that in itself would have meant a betrayal of Labour policy, I don't blame the SG for hedging their bets and not just assuming that Labour would follow through. Jackie Baillie was still perfectly content with a non-committal approach right to the very end, so why should the SG have pre-empted the actual vote and just assumed anything? It's not as if everything in Slab world is rational or common sense as a matter of course, and they undeniably loathe the SNP with a zeal that they can't even muster for the Tories.

[strichener]

2 hours ago, Leith Green said:

The assisted dying bill was a members bill introduced by a Lib Dem MSP.

 

No.  It was originally introduced by Margo MacDonald and taken forward by Patrick Harvie after her death.

There is another coming in this parliament introduced by a lib dem.  Let's see how the SNP play it this time.

[BFTD]

Jesus, can you imagine the Heil.

NOW STURGEON TO EUTHANISE SCOTS - house prices fall due to refugee replacement strategy

[Granny Danger]

This assisted dying bill.  Do we get to make nominations?
 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, almost forgot.  @strichener

[strichener]

6 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

This assisted dying bill.  Do we get to make nominations?
 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, almost forgot.  @strichener

No problem, I'll easily help you.

[King Ian]

12 hours ago, Boo Khaki said:

Which are what, specifically?

There have been two public consultations regarding this reform bill. Elaine Miller had plenty of opportunity to plead her case. Evidently she, and those sharing her views, have completely failed to convince the parliament that there was any reason whatsoever why this bill should not progress as intended. From where I'm standing Miller and her ilk look like nothing more than a bunch of people who can not accept that they have lost this debate. They've failed to substantiate their argument, and they can't reconcile that there is nothing of substance to suggest that the 'majority' they contend they represent actually exists, and as a result of that they've resorted to the sort of histrionics and delusionary rhetoric that they accuse trans rights activists of.

Again, the litmus test of policy is electoral outcome, and evidently most people are more than happy to vote for parties who favour GRC legislation and Self-ID. Miller's stunt in the chamber reeks of impotent rage in the face of a democratic outcome she doesn't agree with. While I understand the frustration, it is emphatically the result of democracy in action, so I don't have any time whatsoever for this nonsense about the SG going rogue and pushing through legislation against the will of the Scottish people. That's yet one more claim that they make repeatedly in the face of the only evidence suggesting the opposite of the claim.

And as for this nonsense about 'MSP's protecting sex offenders over women and children' - If someone can honestly have a wee think about the implications of that, come back, and still claim they genuinely believe that elected MSP's prioritise sex-offenders, then I'm sorry, you need to go seek help for your mental health.

Depression, the regret of irreversible surgery and the constant tiredness having used medication that puts them in a post-menopausal state.

I'm sure there were plenty others.  Might watch the videos again to jog my memory.  I'd ask others to do the same, but the thought of many on here challenging their view on this issue seems fanciful.

I disagree with your view on Miller etc just being petulant having lost.  She is genuinely making detailed, sensible points.

I genuinely think we'll look back on this one day and wonder what the hell we were thinking.

Time'll tell, I suppose.

[Granny Danger]

Just now, strichener said:

No problem, I'll easily help you.

Death by contrarianism?  I’m looking for something quicker and more humane.

[welshbairn]

20 minutes ago, King Ian said:

Time'll tell, I suppose.

Thankfully we have the example of Ireland and many other countries who introduced similar legislation years ago, with little or no effect on the numbers of people choosing to transition. Very little will change other than the legal procedure being slightly less soul destroying.

Edited December 28, 2022 by welshbairn

[King Ian]

9 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Thankfully we have the example of Ireland and many other countries who introduced similar legislation years ago, with little or no effect on the numbers of people choosing to transition. 

Correct.  'trans' people not being aware of the dangers beforehand is a huge part of the problem, from what I gather.

Sex-change specialist warns of surgery regrets as two Irish people reverse procedure - Extra.ie

Quote

Prof O’Shea, consultant endocrinologist at St Vincent’s and St Columcille’s Hospitals in Dublin, said that while data is difficult to compile, he believes the level of regret in Ireland is higher than it is internationally

 

[BFTD]

King Ian's Oaksoft, right?

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, King Ian said:

while data is difficult to compile, he believes

Aye!

[welshbairn]

9 minutes ago, BFTD said:

King Ian's Oaksoft, right?

Don't think so, I was convinced he was Jobby McCall when he signed up a week ago but probably neither..

Edited December 28, 2022 by welshbairn

[Sherrif John Bunnell]

2 minutes ago, BFTD said:

King Ian's Oaksoft, right?

Nah, signing up for a Scottish football forum to almost exclusively rail against the existence of trans people means it must be glinner.

[carpetmonster]

8 minutes ago, King Ian said:

Correct.  'trans' people not being aware of the dangers beforehand is a huge part of the problem, from what I gather.

Sex-change specialist warns of surgery regrets as two Irish people reverse procedure - Extra.ie

 

This is worth a read about the small numbers of people who detransition, whether that be after any sort of gender affiriming medical care or not. For instance, in the UK a survey of 3398 attendees of a gender identity clinic found that just sixteen – about 0.47% – experienced transition-related regret.

Sweden is 2%, and the only country where a higher percentage is reported is the USA where In the US, a survey of nearly 28,000 people found that 8% of respondents reported some kind of detransition. Of this 8%, 62% per cent only did so temporarily due to societal, financial, or family pressures 

Translation: I'm in America, my family are Christian loonballs and I don't want to be ostracized. Also medical care is spotty - getting gender affirming care in Chicago or NYC might be a totally different experience than in rural Oklahoma or Utah (look at the way individual states have reacted to Roe vs Wade being struck down for the unhappy foisting of 'morality' onto healthcare) - and again, a diagnosis of gender dysphoria is required before insurers will think about coughing up for any gender affirming care. 

https://www.gendergp.com/detransition-facts/

 

ETA - for context, the number of knee replacement patients who express regret at the procedure is upwards of 20%. 

 

Apologies for formatting, not sure what's going on with that. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by carpetmonster

[BFTD]

Just now, welshbairn said:

Don't think so, I was convinced he was Jobby McCall when he first arrived but probably not either..

It's the signing up immediately after Oaksoft was punted, just to discuss genitals, and finding it impossible to conceal a deep disdain for the site within two weeks of arrival.

I get the impression he's winding his neck in to avoid another immediate emptying, but time will tell.

[carpetmonster]

4 minutes ago, BFTD said:

It's the signing up immediately after Oaksoft was punted, just to discuss genitals, and finding it impossible to conceal a deep disdain for the site within two weeks of arrival.

I get the impression he's winding his neck in to avoid another immediate emptying, but time will tell.

I'm dearly looking forward to spending my retirement watching Graham Linehan videos. 

[King Ian]

9 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

This is worth a read about the small numbers of people who detransition, whether that be after any sort of gender affiriming medical care or not. For instance, in the UK a survey of 3398 attendees of a gender identity clinic found that just sixteen – about 0.47% – experienced transition-related regret.

Sweden is 2%, and the only country where a higher percentage is reported is the USA where In the US, a survey of nearly 28,000 people found that 8% of respondents reported some kind of detransition. Of this 8%, 62% per cent only did so temporarily due to societal, financial, or family pressures 

Translation: I'm in America, my family are Christian loonballs and I don't want to be ostracized. Also medical care is spotty - getting gender affirming care in Chicago or NYC might be a totally different experience than in rural Oklahoma or Utah (look at the way individual states have reacted to Roe vs Wade being struck down for the unhappy foisting of 'morality' onto healthcare) - and again, a diagnosis of gender dysphoria is required before insurers will think about coughing up for any gender affirming care. 

https://www.gendergp.com/detransition-facts/

 

ETA - for context, the number of knee replacement patients who express regret at the procedure is upwards of 20%. 

 

Apologies for formatting, not sure what's going on with that. 

Those figures seem dodgy as hell.  Will have a better look tomorrow.

[MrWorldwideJr]

'Trans' people.

Jesus Christ.

Said similar a few weeks ago but imagine someone coming onto a thread on gay marriage (for example) and writing 'gay' people. Absolutely horrible stuff.

The whole having your point disproven with figures and immediately declaring the figures nonsense with no explanation or justification is very Oaksoft though.

[carpetmonster]

27 minutes ago, BFTD said:

King Ian's Oaksoft, right?

Probably. 'Trans' in quote marks gives the game away given prior assertions that transgender people aren't actually transgender, they're just mentally ill. Of course, spamming bullshit and constantly fawning for validation on the non-football boards of a Scottish football board is the happy retirement they're busy selling to folks in Saga magazine.