SPFL 2 playoffs - (Brechin,) Spartans and (another) Albion Rovers

[Footballfirst]

5 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Commiserations to Rovers. I hope they will come back. To all the naysayers who are saying that relegation from the SPFL is a one-way ticket to permanent non-league football, look at what’s happened in England. It’s taken a few years, but there are now teams that have had more than one promotion/relegation to the EFL and last time I looked there were ex-league teams playing as far down as the ninth tier. And non-league teams have made it to the top league.  Eventually, the Lowland League will have a good mix of ex-SPFL and ex-juniors (and hopefully no B teams, boys clubs or University sides), and there will be teams that can spend some time in any one of tiers 2 through 6. 

It took a good few years in England to open up relegation between League 2 and the Conference/National League. However, having done so, there are several sides who dropped from the EFL and have now returned, Wrexham being the latest. The mix of clubs between L2 and the National League is such  that most folk would have difficulty identifying who was in which League.

One of the biggest bounces has been that of Luton Town who are just 90 minutes away from the gazillions of the EPL having been in the Conference League as recently as 2014. 

The opportunity is there for the recently relegated L2 sides to encourage their former league partners to do the right thing and open up relegation and promotion between the current Tiers 4 and 5 (and reject the conference league).

Edited May 20, 2023 by Footballfirst

[G_&_T]

1 minute ago, Footballfirst said:

It took a good few years in England to open up relegation between League 2 and the Conference/National League. However, having done so, there are several sides who dropped from the EFL and have now returned, Wrexham, being the latest. The mix of clubs between L2 and the National League is such  so much so that most folk would have difficulty identifying who was in which League.

One of the biggest bounces has been that of Luton Town who are just 90 minutes away from the gazillions of the EPL having been in the Conference League as recently as 2014. 

The opportunity is there for the recently relegated L2 sides to encourage their former league partners to do the right thing and open up relegation and promotion between the current Tiers 4 and 5 (and reject the conference league.

 

The maximum number of spots for relegation is two. So how would that work?

The Highland League and Lowland League champions could have a play-off as they do now, with the winner taking the place of the side that finishes bottom. The loser of the play-off then plays the second bottom side. That would work.

I just think the Lowland League is tinpot for admitting reserve teams. It also means the side that finishes fourth could potentially contest the play-off, if the three B teams finish in spots 1-3. It's a joke of a league.

[SlipperyP]

Interesting league next season with Clyde & Spartans, who to hate the most?

then you have Bonnyrigg.

 

[AberhillLoyal]

41 minutes ago, SlipperyP said:

Interesting league next season with Clyde & Spartans, who to hate the most?

then you have Bonnyrigg.

 

Spartans are more of a leisure centre than a football club. 

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

We’d certainly be less boring to watch than Dumbarton. But yes, aye ok, we are a fan owned club, no big money backers and our future will be built upon the youth academy thats less than 10 years old and already has 3 Scottish Cup wins. We can’t compete with clubs at our level with questionable finances paying people £800 a week or whatever but we’ll get there. But despite having that against us, we’ve still pulled in over 500 home fans a game and im sure in the next 10/15 years we’ll be back in the spfl. Aye we arent going to revolutionise Scottish Football but we’ll be the first ever fan led club to rebuild entirely and work our way up from nothing. 

Clydebank's potential future as a viable SPFL team will not in fact be built on your 'youth academy'. The massive stratification of resources for youth development put in place by the SFA means that's a non-starter as a serious model for any club that doesn't have access to the 'elite' funding route, or a backer with more money than sense. 

The wider point though is that Clydebank were already in the SFL and for all the recovery that the fanbase have achieved, the idea that Clydebank's return would be some sort of massive upgrade on Albion Rovers' presence in the same setup is risible. There's far more similarity in the experiences between Clydebank and Albion Rovers in the past 30 years. Which gives lie to the idea that novel and innovative non-league teams are emptying complacent wee diddy outfits from the wicked SPFL2. 

[Gordon EF]

The pyramid is obviously a big change to Scottish football but it's worth pointing out that another serious change affecting the status quo is how many clubs seem to be getting money pumped into them, compared to say 20/30 years ago. There's no way Queen's Park would be where they are with Haughey's money and if that money were to dissapear, it would just be a matter of time before QP found themselves back in League 2 (or lower).

It's extremely unlikely that Cove or Kelty would be where they are without money (it's debatable whether they'd even be in the SPFL). Edinburgh City also seem to have someone putting money in and only kicked on once that came into effect.

Go back further to the teams elected in and Peterhead have always had money put into them. Of the other two, Annan just made it out of L2 after 15 years and Elgin never have.

The real test for all these clubs will be where you end up when the money dries up.

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

The real test for all these clubs will be where you end up when the money dries up.

Most people think the exact same when clubs lose the SPFL prize money.

[Gordon EF]

2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Most people think the exact same when clubs lose the SPFL prize money.

Obviously. But that's the case everywhere. Higher up you are, more money you get. Lower fown you go, less money you get. The introduction of the pyramid means clubs will move up or down to find tehir level. Nobody doesn't recognise that.

Not absolutely everything is a roundabout way of saying the traditional SPFL clubs are amazing and super duper big and everyone else is dog shit.

[Nowhereman]

19 hours ago, Autistisches Nilpferd said:

Spartans get to go to Dumbarton, Hamilton, Bonnyrigg, Peterhead and Methil next year. Twice. Are Rovers really the losers here?

You know the cup draws already?

[annan4eva]

14 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

It took a good few years in England to open up relegation between League 2 and the Conference/National League. However, having done so, there are several sides who dropped from the EFL and have now returned, Wrexham being the latest. The mix of clubs between L2 and the National League is such  that most folk would have difficulty identifying who was in which League.

One of the biggest bounces has been that of Luton Town who are just 90 minutes away from the gazillions of the EPL having been in the Conference League as recently as 2014. 

The opportunity is there for the recently relegated L2 sides to encourage their former league partners to do the right thing and open up relegation and promotion between the current Tiers 4 and 5 (and reject the conference league).

Wrexham is not a good example TBF two mad actors spending millions is not the long term answer ? Albion are in a perfect position to regroup IMO location and catchment area for up and coming players Surely is perfect if managed correctly ?

[BFTD]

13 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

It took a good few years in England to open up relegation between League 2 and the Conference/National League. However, having done so, there are several sides who dropped from the EFL and have now returned, Wrexham being the latest. The mix of clubs between L2 and the National League is such  that most folk would have difficulty identifying who was in which League.

One of the biggest bounces has been that of Luton Town who are just 90 minutes away from the gazillions of the EPL having been in the Conference League as recently as 2014. 

The opportunity is there for the recently relegated L2 sides to encourage their former league partners to do the right thing and open up relegation and promotion between the current Tiers 4 and 5 (and reject the conference league).

TL;DR - moar relegation, please.

IIRC, the old non-league Conference in England only managed to expand their promotion numbers by forcing the issue, back when it was still only one up, one down between two leagues of 24 teams. They'd been blanked by the Football League for years over extra promotion places, so they announced that the sole promotion place would go to the winners of a four-team play-off at season's end, and not automatically to the champions.

The Football League lost their shit and threatened to end relegation from the fourth tier, but it forced their hand and an extra promotion place was granted soon after. It should be at least three up/down by now TBH, which is presumably why the National League has expanded the play-offs to six teams; trying to increase the number of sides with something still to play for in the closing weeks.

When the Football League initially introduced relegation, there was a general feeling that Football League clubs would piss all over the part-time Conference sides and likely come straight back, which was borne out to a degree at the start - the clubs who didn't usually had problems off the park too. That might have played a part in abandoning the silly re-election system and allowing movement based on on-field performance. The National League is now filled with a majority of full-time ex-League clubs who could virtually all hold their own back in the Football League, so any argument against greater movement is gone.

Here, League One/Two sides will understandably never vote for automatic relegation when they know they'd need a roaringly successful season to regain their status, and any of them can be on the chopping block with just a few bad decisions. The way to get around that might be to agree on expanded promotion now and get it over with - the Highland/Lowland champions come straight up, with winners of play-off tournaments in both leagues joining them. Bottom two or four are relegated (depending on whether you'd want any League Two clubs involved in the play-offs). A chance of promotion after finishing anywhere from fifth up might be enough of a safety net for the SPFL clubs to agree. People might want an expanded League Two to avoid four-fifths of the sides being involved in promotion/relegation every year, but that's a side issue.

Almost certain that Celtgers would block it though, as the very last thing they want is for the pyramid situation to be resolved without their reserve teams being involved somehow.

[Gordon EF]

35 minutes ago, BTFD said:

 People might want an expanded League Two to avoid four-fifths of the sides being involved in promotion/relegation every year, but that's a side issue.

Wouldn't call it a side issue. I think it's crucial.

Something like a two-down automatically, HL and LL champions up automatically and a 2nd place HL/LL play-off with the winners going to face 3rd bottom in L2 would be excellent. There's no way in hell part-time SPFL clubs would vote in that utter blood bath though.

[cowdenbeath]

14 hours ago, SlipperyP said:

Interesting league next season with Clyde & Spartans, who to hate the most?

then you have Bonnyrigg.

 

i'd go with Clyde.

[cowdenbeath]

3 hours ago, Gordon EF said:

The pyramid is obviously a big change to Scottish football but it's worth pointing out that another serious change affecting the status quo is how many clubs seem to be getting money pumped into them, compared to say 20/30 years ago. There's no way Queen's Park would be where they are with Haughey's money and if that money were to dissapear, it would just be a matter of time before QP found themselves back in League 2 (or lower).

It's extremely unlikely that Cove or Kelty would be where they are without money (it's debatable whether they'd even be in the SPFL). Edinburgh City also seem to have someone putting money in and only kicked on once that came into effect.

Go back further to the teams elected in and Peterhead have always had money put into them. Of the other two, Annan just made it out of L2 after 15 years and Elgin never have.

The real test for all these clubs will be where you end up when the money dries up.

The money at Edinburgh came after they got promoted.

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

3 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Most people think the exact same when clubs lose the SPFL prize money.

I’m not entirely sure how much prize money you think clubs get in the SPFL but it’s all relative to the level of player required to remain competitive at said level. The higher up you are the more players cost. Clubs aren’t banking that money, they are using it to pay players. Any club relegated from this league will cut their budget accordingly based on prize money and season ticket sales unless they have a money man like some of the clubs mentioned a few posts back. 

Clubs at this level aren’t wiping their arses with tenners because of this lavish amount of prize money they are receiving every year. I’d expect the likes of Bonnyrigg to establish themselves at either League 2 or League 1 level based on their attendance figures which will ultimately allow them to have a decent playing budget once they have spent what they have to on their ongoing ground upgrades.

 

[theoriginalhedge]

6 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Wouldn't call it a side issue. I think it's crucial.

Something like a two-down automatically, HL and LL champions up automatically and a 2nd place HL/LL play-off with the winners going to face 3rd bottom in L2 would be excellent. There's no way in hell part-time SPFL clubs would vote in that utter blood bath though.

I would be happy even with one automatic relegation spot . The HL/LL play off winner going up and 2nd bottom of L2 playing the losers of the play off.

But the larger league2 is the logical way to go . That would possibly allow more L2 clubs to field younger players without the cut throat environment of a 10 team league looming over them . 

Playing clubs only twice a season is also a great thing for avoiding the mundane familiarity that L2 currently offers. 

[FairWeatherFan]

25 minutes ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

I’m not entirely sure how much prize money you think clubs get in the SPFL but it’s all relative to the level of player required to remain competitive at said level. The higher up you are the more players cost. Clubs aren’t banking that money, they are using it to pay players. Any club relegated from this league will cut their budget accordingly based on prize money and season ticket sales unless they have a money man like some of the clubs mentioned a few posts back. 

Clubs at this level aren’t wiping their arses with tenners because of this lavish amount of prize money they are receiving every year. I’d expect the likes of Bonnyrigg to establish themselves at either League 2 or League 1 level based on their attendance figures which will ultimately allow them to have a decent playing budget once they have spent what they have to on their ongoing ground upgrades.

 

The SPFL is the sugar daddy of a number of clubs.

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

3 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The SPFL is the sugar daddy of a number of clubs.

Aye, League 2 is a hotbed of Scottish talent thanks to those SPFL millions. 

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

Aye, League 2 is a hotbed of Scottish talent thanks to those SPFL millions. 

What are you on about?

The 5 Club 42s were all decent SPFL clubs for the most part (East Stirlingshire being the exception Third Division/League Two era). They're now finding themselves battling for position with Civil Service Strollers and Buckie. Clubs that aren't exactly minted.

Annan, Elgin, Peterhead before being in the SFL/SPFL upper/mid-table teams in the senior non-leagues.

The only thing that's changed for them has been gaining/losing the centralised prize pot.

 

[Kelheart]

16 hours ago, Footballfirst said:

It took a good few years in England to open up relegation between League 2 and the Conference/National League. However, having done so, there are several sides who dropped from the EFL and have now returned, Wrexham being the latest. The mix of clubs between L2 and the National League is such  that most folk would have difficulty identifying who was in which League.

One of the biggest bounces has been that of Luton Town who are just 90 minutes away from the gazillions of the EPL having been in the Conference League as recently as 2014. 

The opportunity is there for the recently relegated L2 sides to encourage their former league partners to do the right thing and open up relegation and promotion between the current Tiers 4 and 5 (and reject the conference league).

Agree relegation and promotion should be opened up but it's these same former league sides that voted against it in the first place is it not