Lucy Letby guilty

[Boo Khaki]

37 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Ive spoken to some psychiatrists before who explained that a personality disorder was in a large number of cases just a medical diagnosis of being an unpleasant person?

Well...

There are clear criterion and thresholds for being officially diagnosed, but yes, in essence it's true.

There is a huge difference, obviously, in someone who might be a bit moody and irascible, who might be generally regarded as 'unpleasant', and someone who meets the criterion for a formal diagnosis of one or more Cluster B. It's not strictly true though that all diagnosed Cluster B folk are unpleasant. A lot of psychopaths are extremely charming, most of them are not a risk to other people, and it's a bit of a myth that they invariably turn into killers or pyromaniacs and so on.

"Unpleasant", I suppose, can be defined in different ways. I score quite highly on Hare because I generally lack empathy and struggle to show compassion for things I deem unworthy, but I've never had anyone describe me as being outwardly unpleasant to them, and so far as I'm aware, I'm generally viewed as quite laid back, easy going, and easy to talk to, so probably not "unpleasant" in the typical sense, though I can see why people would perhaps say that about me if I got into lengthy conversations about my dislike for children or something. 

Narcissists are the ones I've always felt are truly unpleasant people, because again, though many of them are capable of being superficially affable and friendly, it's usually only a matter of time before that drops and they show their true colours. The 'pleasant' side of NPD people invariably is entirely superficial, because they'll use it for no other purpose than to manipulate or disarm folk, and then they'll treat you like complete shit once you've dropped your guard.

I think the point your shrinks might have been trying to make is along the lines of - in laymans terms, PD explains why some people are horrible and nasty, because the majority of healthy, 'normal' people are not horrible and nasty. It's something that is at odds with basic human nature, hence aberrant and 'disordered'.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Boo Khaki

[RH33]

23 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

‘Large number of cases’! You are very nice, but many people who are horrible fuckers seek to excuse their behaviour with medical diagnoses, which doesnt help people who are genuinely not well. 

Yup, I also think wider population almost need a 'mental health' diagnosis as an explanation when sadly evil does just exist 

[Savage Henry]

9 hours ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

Clearly mentally ill in some shape or form though. there is no rationale motivation, however immoral eg financial etc , for doing this

Mentally ill =/= capable of murdering  seven babies.  It’s not a causation or even correlation.  My dad was one of the team who “worked with” Ian Huntley, and he told me that there was absolutely no sign of mental illness with him at all.  None.  He was as mentally healthy as you or I.   Hence he was kept in the prison system.  
 

The point being, some people commit despicable acts because they want to.  
 

Don’t assume mental illness as a causality or as a correlation.  It does a disservice to people who genuinely are mentally ill.  

 

[Boo Khaki]

Personality Disorder is not a mental illness. 

Manifests itself in a lot of similar ways, but it's why perfectly 'sane' people can do utterly heinous things

[Boo Khaki]

5 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

Mentally ill =/= capable of murdering  seven babies.  It’s not a causation or even correlation.  My dad was one of the team who “worked with” Ian Huntley, and he told me that there was absolutely no sign of mental illness with him at all.  None.  He was as mentally healthy as you or I.   Hence he was kept in the prison system.  
 

The point being, some people commit despicable acts because they want to.  
 

Don’t assume mental illness as a causality or as a correlation.  It does a disservice to people who genuinely are mentally ill.  

 

Huntley is a diagnosed Psychopath. 

[Savage Henry]

24 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

Huntley is a diagnosed Psychopath. 

He may well be, but that’s a long after the fact diagnosis, and not why he committed his crimes.  

[Boo Khaki]

Just now, Savage Henry said:

Psychopathy is a personality disorder.   It’s a nuanced different but he was more than aware of what he did.  He did it intentionally.  

Of course he was perfectly aware of what he did. He wouldn't have been considered criminally responsible otherwise. 

The point is, emphasising that Huntley is a psychopath, and the psychopathy adequately explains his crime and total lack of remorse in no way "does a disservice to people who are genuinely mentally ill", because Cluster B PD's are not mental illnesses.

It's sheer public ignorance that causes people to get angry and assume people are making 'excuses' for the likes of Huntley, 1. because they don't understand the basic difference between Mental Illnesses and Personality Disorders, and 2. They don't understand the difference between an 'excuse' and an 'explanation'. 

Huntley is still not as 'mentally healthy as you or I', assuming neither you or I are psychopaths, because his totally diminished or non-existent empathy and compassion means that he will act in ways that 'mentally healthy' people will not. It's no wonder your dad didn't consider Huntley to be in any way mentally ill, because that is entirely consistent with his formal assessment and diagnosis. It's his psychopathy behind his long-term disordered behaviour (what he did to the girls wasn't completely out of character, he'd abused Carr for years), not any sort of mental illness.

[Boo Khaki]

4 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

He may well be, but that’s a long after the fact diagnosis, and not why he committed his crimes.  

Yes it is, it's exactly why he committed his crimes.

[hk blues]

How about her parents?  As far as I'm aware, they were present throughout the trial and even moved to Manchester so they could be present throughout the trial. It must be totally devastating and even bewildering to listen to the evidence and know it was your daughter and only child who they were talking about.  And, even to the end to not be able to accept she was guilty.  

A life sentence for them too. That said, the parents of the babies who died are  facing a worse life sentence. 

[Savage Henry]

26 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

Yes it is, it's exactly why he committed his crimes.

There are thousands of people in this country with forms of psychopathology.  I think we’re arguing about something we essentially agree over here.  Huntley killed because he wanted to, not because his mental health failings made him do it, and to return to the case in point, there’s no reason to suggest this woman, based on what has been made public, did it for any other reason than because she wanted to.  The immediate connection between mental health and abhorrent crime is both simplistic and unfair.  

[RH33]

1 hour ago, Boo Khaki said:

Personality Disorder is not a mental illness. 

Manifests itself in a lot of similar ways, but it's why perfectly 'sane' people can do utterly heinous things

BPD is very much a mental illness.

[Alert Mongoose]

5 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

Huntley killed because he wanted to,

But why would a 'sane' person want to do that?

[Sergeant Wilson]

10 minutes ago, Donathan said:

I don’t believe in the death penalty but I’d be fine with them just locking her in a cell and leaving her there without food until she dies of natural causes

Aye, I think that would be ok.

[hk blues]

Looking through the verdicts she was found guilty of all murder charges but Not Guilty/Could Not Reach Verdict on close to half of the attempted murder charges.  I wonder why there is such a disparity?  

[Boo Khaki]

2 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

There are thousands of people in this country with forms of psychopathology.  I think we’re arguing about something we essentially agree over here.  Huntley killed because he wanted to, not because his mental health failings made him do it, and to return to the case in point, there’s no reason to suggest this woman, based on what has been made public, did it for any other reason than because she wanted to .  The immediate connection between mental health and abhorrent crime is both simplistic and unfair.  

Why do you keep bringing up mental health?

Huntley's behaviours are nothing to do with his mental health, but everything to do with his psycopathy.

He has little or no sense of empathy, little or no sense of compassion, can not regulate his emotional urges, has reduced or non-existent sense of fear, and little to no concept of consequence, hence why he abused Carr for so long, hence why he can abduct and murder two young girls, and hence why people who are not psychopaths themselves will inevitably struggle to rationalise his behaviour.

Pointing out that psychopathy, in some instances, is precisely why criminals like Huntley can commit the acts they do is in no way linking crime to mental health, as personality disorders are not mental illnesses.

Quote

there’s no reason to suggest this woman, based on what has been made public, did it for any other reason than because she wanted to

Letby has not yet been assessed to ascertain why she might have killed those children, only to ascertain that she was lucid at the time and has the capacity to understand the judicial process and why she is on trial.

The fact she is fit to stand trial says nothing at all about her possible motivations for her crimes, including underlying personality disorder, or, indeed, mental illnesses that may or may be present but have no direct relevance to her fitness to stand trial. You are correct in that right now, there appears to be no reason for her choice to murder infants beyond simply deciding to do it, but that is not a decision that any rational, well, or non-disordered person would take. These sorts of behaviours are so discordant and atypical that the individuals themselves are invariably disordered. It's basically a chicken and egg scenario. You can't have one without the other.

In the fullness of time there will no doubt be further revelations about Letby's personality beyond that which is already public, just as there were in the case of Beverley Allitt, Ian Huntley, Ian Brady, and practically every other spree and serial killer studied.

 

[Savage Henry]

12 minutes ago, Alert Mongoose said:

But why would a 'sane' person want to do that?

Why would a sane person go to Ibrox and sing songs about a Dutch prince from 300 years ago?   Why would a sane person take heroin?   Why would a sane person think that being an actor is any way for a grown adult to behave?   

[Boo Khaki]

15 minutes ago, RH33 said:

BPD is very much a mental illness.

In diagnostic terms, it is not. 

In terms of how it manifests, how it's experienced, and outwardly perception, then yes, for all intents and purposes it may as well be a mental illness, but it's not, it's a Cluster B Personality Disorder.

[Boo Khaki]

16 minutes ago, Alert Mongoose said:

But why would a 'sane' person want to do that?

Because he's a psychopath, and presence of ASPD does not mean you are 'insane'.

It's about behavioural regulation, or more specifically, his inability to regulate his own impulse and behaviour, but he's perfectly lucid and in no way mentally ill.

[Wee Bully]

30 minutes ago, Donathan said:

I don’t believe in the death penalty but I’d be fine with them just locking her in a cell and leaving her there without food until she dies of natural causes

I still can’t believe that people hold this type of view, especially in a week or so where some horrendous miscarriages of justice have been in the press. 

[RH33]

f**k me 25 years of believing I had mental health issues and multiple psychiatric inpatient stays.

And all I had was a categories c in a diagnosic list.