Lucy Letby guilty

[Michael W]

You can always hide things with statistics (Hi Ebbe Skovdahl!) but there was a direct correlation with Lucy Letby being on shift and babies dying or suffering harm. 

She should've been removed and investigated long before she was and the people that inhibited this by refusing to listen to concerns are directly ulpable here as well. These people will of course suffer no adverse consequences for their failures, which is galling. 

[SweeperDee]

This will be one of the biggest public inquests in Britain for the last few decades at least. I’d actually wager corporate manslaughter (usually penalised by fines) will be waived in favour of custodial sentences in regards to the direct involvement of the upper management that wilfully ignored heaps of concerns raised by far more qualified individuals than themselves. I believe in the NHS, I was brought into the world by them, and most likely I’ll go by them, but I hope that trust gets rinsed for everything they’ve got, because every single member of the medical directorate, upper management, and others involved in ignoring the red flags have blood on their hands.
 

Been crying about this a good few hours now. Seeing those pathetic, premeditated scrawled notes all of false remorse, painfully shallow attempts at appearing not compos mentis with the shite she was writing. I’ve seen it before during some of my clin-psych training, in regards to the psychology of murderers. She isn’t psychotic, cause there would have been all the tell tale signs of periods of psychotic breaks, and each of those murders are too calculated to be explained by psychosis. So is she a sociopath? From all I can find she led a perfectly normal life, was well liked, “competent” nurse, good upbringing, so no conventional triggers that could cause someone to spiral into sociopathy. 
 

My only conclusion is that she is just truly evil, and that scares me. I don’t want to believe that there is universal evil, because it just raises so many conflicts in my belief in people. Can animals be evil? Or are they just hunting for food? I truly cannot fathom what this means for humanity if there’s no rationale or medical opinion by psychiatrists who will definitely get to examine her. I just don’t want to believe there is evil in this world. I will link an article about the problem of evil and how it incorporates itself into the mechanisms of the human race, and our actions, free will etc for those who are also frightened at the actual “force” of evil existing:

https://slate.com/technology/2011/09/does-evil-exist-neuroscientists-say-no.html

Sorry I am rambling. My job involves me being in and around NICU’s, Labour Suites, ACU’s, and it all just touches too close to home. Like I said, I believe in the NHS, but my heart is torn here, this is a complete failure on every perceivable level of reality. A reality those poor babies will never get to experience, and a reality the families of those babies will have to live with for the rest of their lives. 
 

She either won’t make it to Prison, or won’t last a day. General Population or not.

Edited August 19, 2023 by SweeperDee

[Nkomo-A-Gogo]

 

Has anybody heard of how she reacted to the judgement?  I like to hear them breaking down or getting dragged downstairs.

[RH33]

Just now, Nkomo-A-Gogo said:

 

Has anybody heard of how she reacted to the judgement?  I like to hear them breaking down or getting dragged downstairs.

Refused to go to the courtroom.

[Ross.]

1 hour ago, SweeperDee said:

My only conclusion is that she is just truly evil, and that scares me.

Not more likely that she is just a plain old psychopath or sociopath with a god complex?

[Bairnardo]

It's not really on topic, but when I read the article about the various ignored concerns what ran through my head for the most part was the Peter Principle. Thinking about exactly the type of person in that job. I bet the people who did everything to avoid tough decisions here are the same generic shirts we all have at our workplaces who are so clearly incompetent and unfit for their position yet routinely fall upwards. 

[RH33]

I'm sure TX Rover will be along shortly with his neonatal care, police investigating and prosecution expertise.....

[Cyclizine]

18 hours ago, invergowrie arab said:

Whilst the hospital management absolutely need to be held accountable I'm not sure some of the colleagues aren't trying to defend their actions.

If you suspect someone is killing babies and management don't act then go to the police. Don't keep sending emails.

Professional regulation for hospital managers was a recommendation in both the Bristol and North Staffs enquiries and, yet, non-clinical managers still don't have any accountability to a regulator.

At present, only managers who are also regulated by another body e.g. GMC or NMC actually have any professional accountability for their actions.

Edited August 19, 2023 by Cyclizine

[Granny Danger]

4 hours ago, Ross. said:

Not more likely that she is just a plain old psychopath or sociopath with a god complex?

Yeah, as tempting as it is to use the term ‘evil’ I don’t thing that covers what went on here.  Someone with severe psychological issues whose actions were not properly monitored.

As a society can never guarantee someone with the same issues is not employed in a similar position again, the only thing we can do is to ensure that management procedures are in place to minimise the chance of the damage being so great.

 

[scottsdad]

7 hours ago, Jacksgranda said:

I need figures i.e. 2500 m3 reduced level, 1750 m3 hardcore fill, 87 m3 30N concrete,  95 nr 1200 diameter precast concrete manhole bases, not statistics, Sarge

On take-off paper? 

[Jacksgranda]

36 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

On take-off paper? 

Excell sheets will do equally well

[Bairnardo]

5 hours ago, RH33 said:

I'm sure TX Rover will be along shortly with his neonatal care, police investigating and prosecution expertise.....

At least @ him ya shitehouse! 

[RH33]

I thought I had 

[SweeperDee]

7 hours ago, Ross. said:

Not more likely that she is just a plain old psychopath or sociopath with a god complex?

No, because to be diagnosed as psychotic, you have to have multiple instances of psychotic episodes, or states of psychosis. As far as what we know in the news, there was never any inclination she suffered from any such episodes. In terms of sociopathy; that disorder develops over time, usually due to abuse, poor upbringing; essentially psychopathy is something you are born with. Sociopaths are made; she had a good upbringing (as far as we know), graduated from University, was popular, not only with other nurses but senior consultants; even one of the 7 consultants who eventually raised the flag about the correlations of her presence and the deaths said “No, not nice Lucy” or something to that effect. I legitimately believe her clinical colleagues just would never believe she would do something like this, but it was only when the deaths were getting more and more frequent, and the common denominator was her being present, something had to be raised to upper management, and that’s where the real failures of human beings are right now, in that hospital. 
 

Like I said in the first post, it really just seems like a case, the first time I think in my life that I could confidently say that person is truly evil, and that is gut-wrenching. Referencing my first post again, those “self-loathing” post-it notes (whether they can be dated, I don’t know) appear to me as plainly false, premeditated almost just in-case she was ever going to get caught. Even if they can date them, it doesn’t really give an insight as to why she wrote them in the first place, because if it was during the start of her spree, during, or nearing the end, it still does not explain why she did it. You can point to some ramblings about how “I’ll never have a family”, “I can’t live like this anymore”, and maybe suspect she was displaying remorse/insight as to why she did these things, but from what I can make out of the transcript of the notes, it really is just “woe is me” in a nuthsell. The only truthful thing she wrote on one of the post-its is “I am evil, I did it”; but she even contradicts herself before saying she hasn’t done anything wrong. Ramblings of a person with top level, severe mental issues who could seemingly hide in plain sight, operating “competently” at work, going to Salsa lessons according to her diary (which, most despicable of all, had the names of the babies she killed on the days it happened) despite all of this seemingly crushing guilt scrawled on bits of paper, or a person who wrote the sort of things down she has seen somewhere that sounds (and reads like something, drawings and squiggles and all) like something a genuinely mentally ill person would do, just as a “just in case I get caught”. 
 

We won’t know until the inquiry is over, and it could turn out she was actually a diagnosed psychopath, or was a sociopath and had been terribly treated in her life that led to her lashing out to the most defenceless of our own species in the most calculated ways possible. There is so much evidence that the police are sitting on that can’t be made public because of the sheer scale of the investigation. Something like 15,000 pages of transcribed statements alone, discarding whatever medical records of the babies that died, all the people who had to be interviewed, cross-checking shift patterns over a span of years (they say they are going to actually go back to when she first started employment to see if she started way before concerns were raised). That hospital would have been getting turned upside down for months by the police collecting information they needed, and finding out who they needed to talk to. 
 

All of this done by someone who was described as “just one of the girls” is fucking bone-chilling.

Edited August 19, 2023 by SweeperDee

[parsforlife]

I don’t believe in someone being inherently evil. There must be something going on,  wild speculation but I wonder if she enjoyed the thrill of emergency situations? The numbers of attempted murders suggested she wasn’t going all out to kill, wether she was putting things on the line just to cover her tracks might be the case tho

[D Angelo Barksdale]

Where does this put her in the list of all time UK bad yins ? Body count is 'only' 7 (god forbid there's more) but the nature and vulnerability of the victims is surely a huge factor here. Is she ahead of your Shipmans, your Wests, your Nilsens ?

[Fullerene]

15 minutes ago, Ziggy Sobotka said:

Where does this put her in the list of all time UK bad yins ? Body count is 'only' 7 (god forbid there's more) but the nature and vulnerability of the victims is surely a huge factor here. Is she ahead of your Shipmans, your Wests, your Nilsens ?

Think about it.  These were premature babies.  They weren't supposed to be safe in their beds or anything like that.  They were supposed to be safe still inside their mother's womb.  That is how vulnerable they were. 

Everyone was supposed to be on high alert by their early arrival to ensure their survival and she was exactly the opposite. 

That is how evil she was.   

[SweeperDee]

17 minutes ago, Fullerene said:

Think about it.  These were premature babies.  They weren't supposed to be safe in their beds or anything like that.  They were supposed to be safe still inside their mother's womb.  That is how vulnerable they were. 

Everyone was supposed to be on high alert by their early arrival to ensure their survival and she was exactly the opposite. 

That is how evil she was.   

Exactly what I meant when she targeted the most defenceless demographic of our species. It’s truly blood curdling, and the ramifications for there not to be any clear and concrete proof she is either psychotic, sociopathic, schizophrenic; or hell, maybe this is a super wombo combo of all of the above in some sort of groundbreaking new diagnosis, cause it that’s not the case then it can only be pure evil in human form. 

[SweeperDee]

40 minutes ago, Ziggy Sobotka said:

Where does this put her in the list of all time UK bad yins ? Body count is 'only' 7 (god forbid there's more) but the nature and vulnerability of the victims is surely a huge factor here. Is she ahead of your Shipmans, your Wests, your Nilsens ?

In terms of child killers, she is the worst.  The actual nature of her crimes…if there is a sort of subjective scale, I’d say she’s the worst modern UK has ever seen. 

[Boo Khaki]

10 hours ago, Nkomo-A-Gogo said:

 

Has anybody heard of how she reacted to the judgement?  I like to hear them breaking down or getting dragged downstairs.

 

10 hours ago, RH33 said:

Refused to go to the courtroom.

The verdicts on each of the charges have been read out over multiple days. IIRC the first was at the start of the week, but the press were prohibited from reporting on them until it was lifted on Friday. Letby, so far as I can tell, was present on the first two days of verdicts, but declined to be present for the rest.

As far as her motivations are concerned; I  do not believe in the notion of 'evil'. It's a concept that is used to mask the fact that human beings are capable of actions that most normal people can not comprehend, so 'evil' gets chucked out as a convenient way to explain the inexplicable, and gloss over the fact that society produces aberrant people and these people are a product of the same society everyone else shares. I don't have a problem with describing actions as 'evil', but it doesn't exist as some sort of entity or force that can impart will upon people any more than 'magic' or 'wishing' does.

I would imagine that post-sentencing there will be a lot more work done in terms of assessing her mental state and looking into the presence of personality disorder and/or mental illness. The fact she's fit to stand trial doesn't say anything other than the fact that she's been judged to have capacity to understand judicial process, and that there is no evidence that she was in a disordered state at the time of the events sufficient to suggest she had no idea what she was doing, but I'll be astounded if she isn't later assessed as a case of Factitious the same as Beverley Allitt. Something that struck me in the Panorama doc is that her parents seemingly referred to her as a miracle baby, and told her over and over that as an infant doctors had saved her life on several occasions, so I wouldn't be surprised if she's always grown up with some sort of perception that doctors and nurses had inherent god-like powers, not just in terms of the clinical means available to them, but as some sort of inherent power that comes with the title/job. I think this is much more significant than the supposed infatuation with the on-call doctor.

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Boo Khaki