Lucy Letby guilty

[SweeperDee]

1 minute ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

You don't half talk pish for someone with qualifications in this field.

What are you on about? Letby, by all accounts was seen as "normal", narcissism has never been mentioned by anyone that has known her, nor the defence of her never brought up any mitagating factors such as any sort of mental disturbance. You talk pish about many things you don't have qualifications for, I don't think you understand the ramifications of someone like Letby in the whole psychiatric sphere. She is an anomoly. 

[ICTChris]

20 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

Reading between the lines, there is a lot about her parents behaviour, her friendship group, and her social interactions that suggest she had a bit of an 'odd' childhood and upbringing. A few things that suggest she was a bit cossetted, didn't really have the interests typical of a young woman in her profession, and possibly doesn't really perceive other people in the way that most do. She reminds me of someone I used to know who had no idea how to interact with other people appropriately, their perception of self was really strange and disordered, couldn't regulate their own emotions, and when things went wrong for them they went running to Maw despite being a fully grown adult.

Her pals seem to regard her as a perfectly nice, normal, shy, 'nerdy' lassie, but psychopathy in women doesn't always present as them being really abrasive, gregarious, or outgoing, so her pals might well have no insight into just how disordered her personality is, and calculating psychopaths are often perfectly capable of presenting an outward persona that doesn't show any signs of the troublesome part of their personality anyway. Some do, some don't, there's no hard and fast rule. The intelligent ones are often perfectly charming and endearing. They can 'mask' to fit in and learn what's acceptable and what isn't, even though they don't necessarily share the same moral code as most people that regulates interpersonal behaviour. Psychopaths often have their own, unique to them and very strong sense of 'justice', even though it can be completely arbitrary and not necessarily in line with typical views. This is why I think there's an aspect to Letby that probably meant she made early judgements about people, and decided whether they were 'acceptable' or not. This is just my personal thought about her, but I think she probably decided 'yes' or 'no' about her patients and their families early on, and if you were acceptable to her you were lucky, and she'd treat you appropriately the way any conscientious nurse would, but if she decided you were not... This is why I think she made several attempts on certain babies but ignored others, even though the repeated attempts made it more and more likely she'd be discovered. 

NPD often indulge in thrill-seeking and will contrive situations that give them a buzz, even when it's illegal or causes harm to others, but like psychopaths, they don't suddenly become narcissists in their mid-20's because of a one-off event. These things are invariably down to childhood trauma and abuse/neglect, so it's possible the attainment of her nursing qualifications is what enabled her to actually act out her abusive behaviours for the first detectable time, even though the root of it is her childhood and upbringing. She's probably never been abusive to her friends, perhaps because she recognised that it wouldn't be tolerated, she'd lose her friendship group, or that she was just so beaten down by overbearing parents that it had never occurred to her to be offensive to other adults, but helpless infants can't grass you up, hit you, tell you to f**k off, or report you to someone who can stand up to you, and some of the things she said to the parents, contextually, are deeply sinister and nasty. She's the nurse, she's the authority figure and the person with the power. Try that in a peer group where you don't carry the 'boss' tag and you'll get a smack in the mouth at best. Most psychopaths have a diminished sense of fear and consequence, but most of them are not complete idiots and can judge when they can indulge their behaviours and when they can't. There's a reason men who are incandescent with family members and will beat the shit out of their partners don't necessarily act the same way in a work environment, even when faced with far greater and completely genuine 'provocation'. They can still rationalise that the consequences are just too severe to get away with ignoring impulse, but it does sometimes boil over anyway. The person I mentioned up thread was prone to this, although the big difference I can see between this person and Letby is Letby appears to be of at least average, or above average intelligence, whereas my psychopath/narcissist acquaintance was also a bit thick.

If they do eventually get to the bottom of what is going on in her head, I think it will not be a singular diagnosis, because there isn't a single one that adequately explains all of her behaviours, but multiple personality disorder/disorders is perfectly possible, and that can come along with other diagnosable mental illness/illnesses on top. She could be a whole melting pot of of conditions, and I think that's the most likely scenario. 

I don't think that someone could be that disordered a person that they can murder premature babies without there being any indications of having anything wrong.  I haven't heard anyone say anything convincing in the slightest about her displaying any sort of unusual or strange behaviour.  She maintained friendships, she completed her education, there was nothing raised about her until the deaths.  It's hardly scientific but if you look at the details of all the similar crimes committed by nurses or doctors all of them had some blemish on their record, for example

Beverley Allit - Had self harmed while on duty and feigned illness as a student nurse

Benjamin Green - Showed up in the A&E dept when he wasn't supposed to, wore incorrect clothes indicating he'd achieved a position he hadn't qualifed for.

Colin Norris - History of dishonesty, had openly spoken to people about disliking elderly people, his patients.

Harold Shipman - History of drug addiction, found guilty of misconduct for forging prescriptions.

Barbara Salisbury - Was notorious for being callous with patients and bullied fellow staff.

There is none of that in the case of Letby, unless more comes out in the inquiry.  That's what's so jarring about the case.

[SweeperDee]

1 minute ago, Boo Khaki said:

Psychosis is not a prerequisite for Psychopathy. I do not understand why you are connecting the two.

It is not a prerequisite, no, but it is a very common symptom of Psychopathy. Do you think she is psychopathic or sociopathic? 

[SweeperDee]

Just now, ICTChris said:

I don't think that someone could be that disordered a person that they can murder premature babies without there being any indications of having anything wrong.  I haven't heard anyone say anything convincing in the slightest about her displaying any sort of unusual or strange behaviour.  She maintained friendships, she completed her education, there was nothing raised about her until the deaths.  It's hardly scientific but if you look at the details of all the similar crimes committed by nurses or doctors all of them had some blemish on their record, for example

Beverley Allit - Had self harmed while on duty and feigned illness as a student nurse

Benjamin Green - Showed up in the A&E dept when he wasn't supposed to, wore incorrect clothes indicating he'd achieved a position he hadn't qualifed for.

Colin Norris - History of dishonesty, had openly spoken to people about disliking elderly people, his patients.

Harold Shipman - History of drug addiction, found guilty of misconduct for forging prescriptions.

Barbara Salisbury - Was notorious for being callous with patients and bullied fellow staff.

There is none of that in the case of Letby, unless more comes out in the inquiry.  That's what's so jarring about the case.

Exactly. All cases similar to this show there is disorder behaviour amongst those in the same sort of category as Letby, but as you said, there is nothing there in the public sphere to suggest she was anything but normal. I don't know why folk aren't understanding that. 

[Boo Khaki]

Covert narcissism is a very real thing. It fits with Letby, it also explains why nobody perceives her outwardly to be narcissistic, because it primarily manifests itself as low self-esteem, insecurity, and self-doubt, not the preening, extroverted, pompous behaviours more commonly associated with typical narc PD.

[SweeperDee]

Just now, Boo Khaki said:

Covert narcissism is a very real thing. It fits with Letby, it also explains why nobody perceives her outwardly to be narcissistic, because it primarily manifests itself as low self-esteem, insecurity, and self-doubt, not the preening, extroverted, pompous behaviours more commonly associated with typical narc PD.

But she was never seen as someone with low self-esteem, that only appears from the notes she wrote. She was seen as "one of the girls", went on holiday with colleagues, did all the normal things a young nurse would do, and was seen as competent, unlike the examples you gave. 

[ICTChris]

Regarding her not showing up, I think the judge can order defendents to be taken to court.  A case was mentioned in the news today where a convicted murderer refused to appear in court so the judge ordered him to be carried by eight prison officers and made to hear his sentence.

Quote

Family members of both the murdered men broke down as the verdict was revealed. Clifton, who was due to defend himself at the two-week trial but refused to attend court, was shackled, carried into the dock and pinned to the floor by six prison as his fate was announced. It had taken the jury just half-an-hour to find him guilty of both murders.

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/6188442.never-freed/

[Sergeant Wilson]

3 minutes ago, SweeperDee said:

Exactly. All cases similar to this show there is disorder behaviour amongst those in the same sort of category as Letby, but as you said, there is nothing there in the public sphere to suggest she was anything but normal. I don't know why folk aren't understanding that. 

It was you that brought "pure evil" in to it. It's hardly a concept a professional would use in a psychiatric context 

[SweeperDee]

Just now, Sergeant Wilson said:

It was you that brought "pure evil" in to it. It's hardly a concept a professional would use in a psychiatric context 

That is the whole point, that is why I am confused by this whole thing. If she is diagnosable, it will be an absolute cocktail of various things, which could lead to a whole new type of diagnosis. She does not fit neatly into any disorder whatsoever. 

[Boo Khaki]

2 minutes ago, SweeperDee said:

It is not a prerequisite, no, but it is a very common symptom of Psychopathy. Do you think she is psychopathic or sociopathic? 

It isn't a common symptom. The majority of psychopaths do not display any significant comorbid mental illness, never mind a condition so obvious as psychosis.

It's a prerequisite for a diagnosis of Schizophrenia, a completely different condition.

I'm not sure whether she's either psycho or socio, but they are both ASPD regardless, and I am certain she shows enough to be diagnosed.

[Granny Danger]

3 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

Regarding her not showing up, I think the judge can order defendents to be taken to court.  A case was mentioned in the news today where a convicted murderer refused to appear in court so the judge ordered him to be carried by eight prison officers and made to hear his sentence.

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/6188442.never-freed/

I honestly don’t see the benefits of that to anyone including the victims families.  It’s the sort of thing I imagine the rabid right in the USA would lap up.

[Sergeant Wilson]

Just now, SweeperDee said:

That is the whole point, that is why I am confused by this whole thing. If she is diagnosable, it will be an absolute cocktail of various things, which could lead to a whole new type of diagnosis. She does not fit neatly into any disorder whatsoever. 

Based on what, media reports? She might fit neatly in to one or multiple categories and existing conditions.

[SweeperDee]

Just now, Boo Khaki said:

It isn't a common symptom. The majority of psychopaths do not display any significant comorbid mental illness, never mind a condition so obvious as psychosis.

It's a prerequisite for a diagnosis of Schizophrenia, a completely different condition.

I'm not sure whether she's either psycho or socio, but they are both ASPD regardless, and I am certain she shows enough to be diagnosed.

Well we can agree to disagree regarding the links between episodes of psychosis and psycopathy; she definitely isn't schizoaffective anyway. I hope she is diagnosed with something, otherwise there's just something really wrong about all of this. 

[Boo Khaki]

5 minutes ago, SweeperDee said:

But she was never seen as someone with low self-esteem, that only appears from the notes she wrote. She was seen as "one of the girls", went on holiday with colleagues, did all the normal things a young nurse would do, and was seen as competent, unlike the examples you gave. 

Aye, but she was also described as quiet, shy, nerdy, one of a group of peers who were the unpopular girls at school, never had any romantic relationships that anyone is aware of, a bookworm, a swat, and absolutely craved attention from more qualified authority figures in her place of work.

[throbber]

17 minutes ago, highlandmac said:

They make it difficult for people who express suicidal thoughts to kill themselves

Folk quietly determined to do it who don't go on about it find it pretty easy to top themselves in jail

Letby won’t find it easy to kill herself. Neither will Wayne couzens Ian Huntley Ian watkins etc 

[SweeperDee]

Just now, Sergeant Wilson said:

Based on what, media reports? She might fit neatly in to one or multiple categories and existing conditions.

All we have are media reports, I have mentioned previously that the police will have tonnes of evidence that will get analysed and when she does go under psychiatric investigation, she might well have various illnesses/disorders, but as it stands from everything available to the public, she is an outlier. 

[Rugster]

Just now, SweeperDee said:

All we have are media reports, I have mentioned previously that the police will have tonnes of evidence that will get analysed and when she does go under psychiatric investigation, she might well have various illnesses/disorders, but as it stands from everything available to the public, she is an outlier. 

Just as well proper diagnoses are not done via media reports and hearsay then isn’t it?

[Sergeant Wilson]

1 minute ago, SweeperDee said:

All we have are media reports, I have mentioned previously that the police will have tonnes of evidence that will get analysed and when she does go under psychiatric investigation, she might well have various illnesses/disorders, but as it stands from everything available to the public, she is an outlier. 

You're an outlier!

[Boo Khaki]

9 minutes ago, SweeperDee said:

there is nothing there in the public sphere to suggest she was anything but normal. 

Well, assuming you ignore the whole murdering babies, torturing the parents, online stalking, trophy-taking, mad scribbling, bizarre parental behaviour, the way she faced down and turned the tables on 7 consultants who saw through her at work, demanded complete exoneration and a face-to-face apology from the people who she perceived as having slighted her, but only after her father had threated to call in the GMC, aye, all perfectly normal apart from that.

[SweeperDee]

1 minute ago, Boo Khaki said:

Aye, but she was also described as quiet, shy, nerdy, one of a group of peers who were the unpopular girls at school, never had any romantic relationships that anyone is aware of, a bookworm, a swat, and absolutely craved attention from more qualified authority figures in her place of work.

I mean, that describes a whole host of folk I personally know and work with; as far as I know they definitely wouldn't do what Letby has done. I accept what is in the public sphere just now is probably equivalent to hearsay, but as it stands that's all we can go on. I cannot accept no-one would not notice a narc type personality, nor any sort of severe mental disturbance which would present itself by harming babies, especially in that environment.