Red Sea Crisis

[alta-pete]

This is Pie & Bovril. Can you give me the Janet and John version please?

[Florentine_Pogen]

2 hours ago, alta-pete said:

This is Pie & Bovril. Can you give me the Janet and John version please?

 

[Mr Waldo]

4 hours ago, alta-pete said:

This is Pie & Bovril. Can you give me the Janet and John version 

Some heed-the-baws killed some Americans and now they and their pals are bricking it.

[alta-pete]

26 minutes ago, Mr Waldo said:

Some heed-the-baws killed some Americans and now they and their pals are bricking it.

 

[DiegoDiego]

13 hours ago, Freedom Farter said:

That documentary exposes clear injustice. The American mercenaries, living in Florida with their sun tans

When you have a go at Americans for living in America and having a sun tan then it's really hard not to think you aren't exactly the most even-handed commentator.

[johnnydun]

9 hours ago, TxRover said:

The Iranians need to rein in their proxies now, and the proxies feel they’re finally doing what Iran said they wanted.

The Houthis don't fight for Iran though, they have a common enemy for completely different reasons.

[TxRover]

30 minutes ago, johnnydun said:

The Houthis don't fight for Iran though, they have a common enemy for completely different reasons.

No, but they are supported by Iranian funds, weapons and advisors…they are proxies. Iran backed them to cause problems for the Saudis and the U.S., and now they are causing trouble for Iran because they expanded their ops. .

[Freedom Farter]

3 hours ago, DiegoDiego said:

When you have a go at Americans for living in America and having a sun tan then it's really hard not to think you aren't exactly the most even-handed commentator.

It suggests a high amount of leisure time which they can afford due to the millions they were given for murdering Yemenis.

[johnnydun]

50 minutes ago, TxRover said:

No, but they are supported by Iranian funds, weapons and advisors…they are proxies. Iran backed them to cause problems for the Saudis and the U.S., and now they are causing trouble for Iran because they expanded their ops. .

With or without Irans support, the Houthis were going to cause problems for Saudi. They expanded their ops to attack Israeli vessels, again something they would've done without Iran's backing required. They are not just Iranian puppets.

[TxRover]

43 minutes ago, johnnydun said:

With or without Irans support, the Houthis were going to cause problems for Saudi. They expanded their ops to attack Israeli vessels, again something they would've done without Iran's backing required. They are not just Iranian puppets.

Never said they were puppets, I said proxies. There's an important difference here, the proxies are given support by the power in order to attrit the forces of someone the power opposes more than they would without the support, puppets act at the direction and behest of the power. The Houthis were initially provided land attack Semi-Ballistic Missiles to counter Saudi bases, and then given the anti-ship variants as the Royal Saudi Navy get involved. They've now directed those ASBM's at so called neutral shipping, and are causing difficulties for the Iranians who provided these weapons...hardly puppet behavior.

Iran is learning, like the other major powers have over the years, that proxies have their own minds, and sometimes act in ways that are embarrassing or dangerous to their benefactors (see the Mujahideen in Afghanistan).

[johnnydun]

15 minutes ago, TxRover said:

Never said they were puppets, I said proxies. There's an important difference here, the proxies are given support by the power in order to attrit the forces of someone the power opposes more than they would without the support, puppets act at the direction and behest of the power. The Houthis were initially provided land attack Semi-Ballistic Missiles to counter Saudi bases, and then given the anti-ship variants as the Royal Saudi Navy get involved. They've now directed those ASBM's at so called neutral shipping, and are causing difficulties for the Iranians who provided these weapons...hardly puppet behavior.

Iran is learning, like the other major powers have over the years, that proxies have their own minds, and sometimes act in ways that are embarrassing or dangerous to their benefactors (see the Mujahideen in Afghanistan).

No. The Houthis are not a proxy of Iran. They have their own agenda, and do not fight on Iran's command or on Iran's behalf. That's what a proxy is. Just because they are supplied arms for a common enemy doesn't make them a proxy. If so, Saudi would be our proxy.

[TxRover]

34 minutes ago, johnnydun said:

No. The Houthis are not a proxy of Iran. They have their own agenda, and do not fight on Iran's command or on Iran's behalf. That's what a proxy is. Just because they are supplied arms for a common enemy doesn't make them a proxy. If so, Saudi would be our proxy.

A proxy can certainly have their own agenda and tactics…a puppet follows orders and is only nominally independent. A proxy is a force/government/country used to strike at a target rather than you doing it yourself. You don’t have to be controlling when, where or how these attacks happen, you simply supply aid to the proxy that enables them to cause trouble for the target…and sometimes it gets used otherwise. You seem to think otherwise, I respect your right to think differently, even if you’re wrong, m8. 

[johnnydun]

1 hour ago, TxRover said:

A proxy can certainly have their own agenda and tactics…a puppet follows orders and is only nominally independent. A proxy is a force/government/country used to strike at a target rather than you doing it yourself. You don’t have to be controlling when, where or how these attacks happen, you simply supply aid to the proxy that enables them to cause trouble for the target…and sometimes it gets used otherwise. You seem to think otherwise, I respect your right to think differently, even if you’re wrong, m8. 

But that's just not factually correct.

We supply weapons to Saudi, we don't command how they use them, but we know what they are going to be used for, does that make Saudi our proxy? No of course it doesn't.

It's exactly the same here with Iran and the Houthis.

A proxy acts on behalf of someone else. The Houthis are not acting on behalf of Iran. Therefore not a Proxy.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/1/12/who-are-yemens-houthis-a-basic-guide

However, analysts say the Shia group should not be seen as an Iranian proxy. It has its own base, its own interests – and its own ambitions.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/3/8/the-limits-of-irans-influence-on-yemens-houthi-rebels

"the Houthis differ from Iran’s other partners, Stephen Zunes, professor of politics and international studies at the University of San Francisco, told Al Jazeera.

“Unlike some allied militia in Iraq and Syria, the Houthis have never been an Iranian proxy. They have their own unique history, grievances and agenda,” 

[TxRover]

2 hours ago, johnnydun said:

But that's just not factually correct.

We supply weapons to Saudi, we don't command how they use them, but we know what they are going to be used for, does that make Saudi our proxy? No of course it doesn't.

It's exactly the same here with Iran and the Houthis.

A proxy acts on behalf of someone else. The Houthis are not acting on behalf of Iran. Therefore not a Proxy.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024/1/12/who-are-yemens-houthis-a-basic-guide

However, analysts say the Shia group should not be seen as an Iranian proxy. It has its own base, its own interests – and its own ambitions.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/3/8/the-limits-of-irans-influence-on-yemens-houthi-rebels

"the Houthis differ from Iran’s other partners, Stephen Zunes, professor of politics and international studies at the University of San Francisco, told Al Jazeera.

“Unlike some allied militia in Iraq and Syria, the Houthis have never been an Iranian proxy. They have their own unique history, grievances and agenda,” 

Opinions, like arseholes, are something everyone has.

“The Houthis are now Iran’s most potent proxy“, The Japan Times, Jan 14, 2024.

On the other hand:

“The Houthi are not an Iranian proxy in the sense of unquestioningly doing Tehran’s bidding,
voluntarily or under pressure. Yet, the movement can be viewed as an informal partner
of Tehran.”, Clingendeal (Netherlands Institute of International Relations), Jan 2024.

There again:

“Could the Houthis Be the Next Hizballah? Iranian Proxy Development in Yemen and the Future of the Houthi Movement”, The Rand Corporation, 2020.

And, of course:

“Iran Looks to Houthi Proxies to Escalate Fight With Israel”, New York Times, Dec 8, 2023.

 

There is significant disagreement over the influence Iran has over the Houthis. The provision of weapons gives them some basic influence, but little control over their use, other than the choices of weapons to provide,

The difference between the UK’s provision of weapons to the Saudi’s is that the UK sells them to them as a business transaction. The Iranians, as far as it has been determined, are not receiving payment for the weapons provided to the Houthis…so why do they provide the weapons? Surely not from the goodness of their hearts, but rather under the enemy of my enemy is my friend theorem. If they then strike at Saudi targets, something the Iranians cannot openly do, they are acting in the role of an Iranian proxy.

Anyway, we can both quote to our hearts content and bore everyone, but let’s just agree to disagree on this.

P.S. I’d say back off or we’ll let DU win in two weeks, but that ship might have sailed.

 

Edited February 3 by TxRover

[johnnydun]

6 hours ago, TxRover said:

Opinions, like arseholes, are something everyone has.

“The Houthis are now Iran’s most potent proxy“, The Japan Times, Jan 14, 2024.

On the other hand:

“The Houthi are not an Iranian proxy in the sense of unquestioningly doing Tehran’s bidding,
voluntarily or under pressure. Yet, the movement can be viewed as an informal partner
of Tehran.”, Clingendeal (Netherlands Institute of International Relations), Jan 2024.

There again:

“Could the Houthis Be the Next Hizballah? Iranian Proxy Development in Yemen and the Future of the Houthi Movement”, The Rand Corporation, 2020.

And, of course:

“Iran Looks to Houthi Proxies to Escalate Fight With Israel”, New York Times, Dec 8, 2023.

 

There is significant disagreement over the influence Iran has over the Houthis. The provision of weapons gives them some basic influence, but little control over their use, other than the choices of weapons to provide,

The difference between the UK’s provision of weapons to the Saudi’s is that the UK sells them to them as a business transaction. The Iranians, as far as it has been determined, are not receiving payment for the weapons provided to the Houthis…so why do they provide the weapons? Surely not from the goodness of their hearts, but rather under the enemy of my enemy is my friend theorem. If they then strike at Saudi targets, something the Iranians cannot openly do, they are acting in the role of an Iranian proxy.

Anyway, we can both quote to our hearts content and bore everyone, but let’s just agree to disagree on this.

P.S. I’d say back off or we’ll let DU win in two weeks, but that ship might have sailed.

 

I just don't think you understand what a proxy is.

But yeah, just leave it at that.

[DiegoDiego]

21 hours ago, Freedom Farter said:

It suggests a high amount of leisure time which they can afford due to the millions they were given for murdering Yemenis.

I imagine most of the 20+ million population of Florida have sun tans. If you think that's worth adding to your case then you've a thin one to begin with. Just stick to what actually matters. Having weekends off isn't a crime.

I do enjoy your input in this thread.

[johnnydun]

That's us bombing Yemen again.

This, alongside the US attacks in Iraq could end up being a very slippery slope.

[superwell87]

48 minutes ago, johnnydun said:

That's us bombing Yemen again.

This, alongside the US attacks in Iraq could end up being a very slippery slope.

There's no could about it imo.

[Newbornbairn]

When the Americans said they were considering a response and then said they had a list of Iran-linked targets they were going to hit, I thought of this scene -

 

 

[beefybake]

1 hour ago, Newbornbairn said:

When the Americans said they were considering a response and then said they had a list of Iran-linked targets they were going to hit, I thought of this scene -

 

 

 

That gung-ho/heads gone attitude in the aftermath of 9/11 is what ended up with the mess that was Iraq and Afghanistan. And in the latter, the almost scene for scene repeat of the last helicopters taking off from the US Embassy in Vietnam in 1975.  Except it was C-17's with people hanging off the undercarriages.

 

.

 

Edited February 4 by beefybake