Red Sea Crisis

[oneteaminglasgow]

2 hours ago, Mr Waldo said:

Well that's  a silly want.  You obviously do not understand 'carpet bombing'.

So what should the evil West do?  Ignore everything, ask the Houtis not to commit 'war crimes'?  

[101]

Actually seems like the insurance industry is stopping shipping in the region by refusing to cover ships using the passage, so have we just launched a tax payer funded mission to help the nobel cause of the insurance industry?

[johnnydun]

2 hours ago, Mr Waldo said:

Well that's  a silly want.  You obviously do not understand 'carpet bombing'.

So what should the evil West do?  Ignore everything, ask the Houtis not to commit 'war crimes'?  

The only group in Yemen committing war crimes are the Saudis.

f**k you and your trolling bullsit.

[printer]

"Operation Prosperity Guardian."

[HibeeJibee]

3 hours ago, printer said:

"Operation Prosperity Guardian."

Noticed that !




'Mad Mitch' went old school incidentally: "Operation Stirling Castle".

[ClydeTon]

Anyone who sees the Houthis as the victims here do need to really take a step back and think.

Their entire mantra is Islamist, anti-Western, anti-Jewish, anti-LGBT, you name it. Their motto is literally:

'God [Allah] is the greatest; Death to America; Death to Israel; A Curse upon the Jews; Victory to Islam'

Are the attacks are just America and Britain spreading their wings because they can? Yes.

But it's not as if they're attacking innocents the way that Israel are in Gaza. These attacks are solely to deal with a group who are the geopolitical p***k's p***k 

The people out in the streets in NYC and the likes are falling into the Islamist/anti-Western trap, and assuming that these attacks are imperialist and not, you know, attacking a rebel group who have commited piracy and terrorism, and have quite literally reinstated slavery in their part of Yemen.

Bonus stupidity points to anyone on the planet who:

Refers to the Houthis as "Yemen" (and, likewise, refers to this as an attack on/bombing of Yemen)

Refers to this as an "invasion" or "genocide"

Calls the Houthis the good guys.

[Freedom Farter]

1 hour ago, ClydeTon said:

Anyone who sees the Houthis as the victims here do need to really take a step back and think.

Their entire mantra is Islamist, anti-Western, anti-Jewish, anti-LGBT, you name it. Their motto is literally:

'God [Allah] is the greatest; Death to America; Death to Israel; A Curse upon the Jews; Victory to Islam'

Are the attacks are just America and Britain spreading their wings because they can? Yes.

But it's not as if they're attacking innocents the way that Israel are in Gaza. These attacks are solely to deal with a group who are the geopolitical p***k's p***k 

The people out in the streets in NYC and the likes are falling into the Islamist/anti-Western trap, and assuming that these attacks are imperialist and not, you know, attacking a rebel group who have commited piracy and terrorism, and have quite literally reinstated slavery in their part of Yemen.

Bonus stupidity points to anyone on the planet who:

Refers to the Houthis as "Yemen" (and, likewise, refers to this as an attack on/bombing of Yemen)

Refers to this as an "invasion" or "genocide"

Calls the Houthis the good guys.

Where are you getting this slavery thing from? A previous comment in the thread also stated that but its a new claim which seems to have just sprung up on Twitter in the last two days.

[johnnydun]

2 hours ago, ClydeTon said:

Bonus stupidity points to anyone on the planet who:

Refers to the Houthis as "Yemen" (and, likewise, refers to this as an attack on/bombing of Yemen)

They are literally North Yemen, they are supported in North Yemen. They don't align with Irans political ideology, the Houthis want to end corruption and make Yemen a Republic, but because they are Shia Muslims, they align religiously with Iran and the opposite of the more powerful Sunni Saudi Arabia. 

So maybe only half a stupidity point for me then?

I wouldn't be surprised if this leads to the break up of Yemen back in to a North/South.

They are also trying to get rid of AQAP, so how's that for an American quandary?

Edited January 13 by johnnydun

[Freedom Farter]

2 hours ago, ClydeTon said:

Anyone who sees the Houthis as the victims here do need to really take a step back and think.

Their entire mantra is Islamist, anti-Western, anti-Jewish, anti-LGBT, you name it. Their motto is literally:

'God [Allah] is the greatest; Death to America; Death to Israel; A Curse upon the Jews; Victory to Islam'

Are the attacks are just America and Britain spreading their wings because they can? Yes.

But it's not as if they're attacking innocents the way that Israel are in Gaza. These attacks are solely to deal with a group who are the geopolitical p***k's p***k 

The people out in the streets in NYC and the likes are falling into the Islamist/anti-Western trap, and assuming that these attacks are imperialist and not, you know, attacking a rebel group who have commited piracy and terrorism, and have quite literally reinstated slavery in their part of Yemen.

Bonus stupidity points to anyone on the planet who:

Refers to the Houthis as "Yemen" (and, likewise, refers to this as an attack on/bombing of Yemen)

Refers to this as an "invasion" or "genocide"

Calls the Houthis the good guys.

Actually, a more comprehensive reply: 

The Houthis are Islamists. They're also reactionaries on many social issues. Both true. However, the discussion here isn't whether we should vote for them in the next Yemeni election.

Some Houthi spokesmen have sought to mitigate their slogan, explaining their opposition to US and Israel as due to those nations' fundamental roles in Yemeni suffering. There's something in that. The Saudi government only remains in place because US backing has allowed it to resist democratic uprisings. Jamal Khashoggi, a name we all know, was murdered by the Saudis for promoting democracy. The Saudis tracked him using spyware the Israelis had given them. Bahrain is currently supporting the US/UK missile strikes on Yemen. Well the Bahraini people's uprising during the Arab Spring was crushed by Saudi. The Saudis also tried very hard to prevent the Arab Spring revolution in Yemen. They directly murdered around 15k Yemenis in the revolutionary region. That included missile striking a bus full of children returning from a picnic among many, many other crimes. Hundreds of thousands of Yemenis later died resulting from the Saudi destruction of their healthcare infrastructure. Famine and disease took hold. A majority of the dead were children. 

I don't think we should deny the Yemeni people their right to self-governance and self-determination. The Houthis are their revolutionary government, whether good or bad, that's what it is. There are regions in the east and south of Yemen which are not under Houthi control. Living there are Sunnis governed by local salafists loyal to Saudi. It's a lot of land on a map but population density is very low, its desert. Those people and areas of Yemen still matter. Yet its surely wrong to consider only them as legitimate Yemen. The Houthis govern roughly 25M Yemenis and enjoy huge public demonstrations of support in Sanaa. That can't just be dismissed.

I don't know who's on the streets of New York and what they're saying but my advice would be to worry more about who's in the halls of Washington and what they're saying.

With perceived Houthi piracy, there's more needing considered there than a lot of these popular tweets would have us believe. In April last year, USA pirated a Greek ship that was carrying Iranian oil. They forced it to port in Texas and just stole the oil, close to a million barrels with a multimillion dollar value which they then sold. Actions like that by USA destabilise by setting a precedent and a standard of behaviour. 

Finally, on the slavery thing, the Yemeni NGO Mwatana reported that Ethiopian women refugees, migrants en route to Saudi, had been sexually enslaved by some Houthi men while camped in Yemen. Ethiopians have also been massacred by Saudi border guards when attempting to enter Saudi. 

[johnnydun]

7 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

There are regions in the east and south of Yemen which are not under Houthi control. Living there are Sunnis governed by local salafists loyal to Saudi.

Great Post.

I spent most of my time in Yemen in the South, Shabwah area. Oil rich and was considered a safe heaven for those fleeing the conflict in the North. They have had much of the military guarding the area, and have a deal with the Houthis to stay out. Which is why I think Yemen will split in 2 again.

The rest of my time was spent in Marib and then a short amount of time in Sanaa, this is where I had a pint and a meal with the then, US Ambassador for Middle Eastern Affairs Jeffery Feltman (who went on to become the Under Secretary General of the UN.)

[vikingTON]

5 hours ago, ClydeTon said:

Anyone who sees the Houthis as the victims here do need to really take a step back and think.

Their entire mantra is Islamist, anti-Western, anti-Jewish, anti-LGBT, you name it. Their motto is literally:

'God [Allah] is the greatest; Death to America; Death to Israel; A Curse upon the Jews; Victory to Islam'

Are the attacks are just America and Britain spreading their wings because they can? Yes.

But it's not as if they're attacking innocents the way that Israel are in Gaza. These attacks are solely to deal with a group who are the geopolitical p***k's p***k 

The people out in the streets in NYC and the likes are falling into the Islamist/anti-Western trap, and assuming that these attacks are imperialist and not, you know, attacking a rebel group who have commited piracy and terrorism, and have quite literally reinstated slavery in their part of Yemen.

Bonus stupidity points to anyone on the planet who:

Refers to the Houthis as "Yemen" (and, likewise, refers to this as an attack on/bombing of Yemen)

Refers to this as an "invasion" or "genocide"

Calls the Houthis the good guys.

Erm yes, the world's imperial hyperpower is definitely bombing Yemen due to, err, the Houthis disgraceful lack of support for LGBT rights.

As opposed to that obviously shining beacon of liberal Western values and civil rights called Saudi fucking Arabia on the other side of the border. 

[Freedom Farter]

3 hours ago, johnnydun said:

Great Post.

I spent most of my time in Yemen in the South, Shabwah area. Oil rich and was considered a safe heaven for those fleeing the conflict in the North. They have had much of the military guarding the area, and have a deal with the Houthis to stay out. Which is why I think Yemen will split in 2 again.

The rest of my time was spent in Marib and then a short amount of time in Sanaa, this is where I had a pint and a meal with the then, US Ambassador for Middle Eastern Affairs Jeffery Feltman (who went on to become the Under Secretary General of the UN.)

https://new.thecradle.co/articles-id/250#:~:text=Marib%2C a resource-rich region,Southern Transitional Council (STC).

Marib and Shabwa are shown there. We can see how Saudi ("coalition controlled area" in that diagram) no longer control most of the people in Yemen yet still control nearly all the oil and gas. That situation saw Saudi content with ending the war because the oil and gas was all they ever cared about. Then as you say, the war ceased on the agreement that the Houthis would not try to take the oil and gas areas (in exchange for Saudi ending the mass slaughter of civilians). 

Saudi have actually been expressing their unease over these US and UK bombings of the Houthis because they don't want the Houthis being stung back into action.

Saudi is squabbling with UAE over who gets the Yemeni oil and gas. The "Southern Transitionary Council" is a separatist group who want to recreate South Yemen. Their loyalty is to UAE not Saudi and they control some of the oil and gas flow.

UAE also annexed the Yemeni island of Socotra in 2018 and have been occupying it since.

[Freedom Farter]

Ach, the horse has bolted now so I'll just keep going. Some more thoughts:

This bombing is being framed as the legitimate government of Yemen giving permission for their territory to be bombed because there's a foreign-backed terrorist group operating in that territory. As expounded plenty above, this is a very, very hard sell. The Houthis have a far stronger claim to legitimacy if we're going by democratic principles. Then the foreign-backed thing is dependent upon folk reacting negatively to "Iran" but positively to "Saudi". 

Even if we accept the version that the legitimate government of Yemen give their blessing to this bombing of their territory, that still doesn't mean the opportunity should be taken. The Francoist government in Madrid was considered legitimate by many. It gave permission to Germany to bomb Guernika. Well the Basques weren't happy with that and ETA militants kept murdering until as recently as 2011. If you bomb a country, even with permission, you can worsen already existing divides within that society. I don't know how Yemeni supporters of the Houthis are perceiving these US/UK bombings, they might view them as attacks on their country being facilitated by the south Yemen entitites. That could kick off the war again and is probably why Saudi are trying to distance themselves from the bombings.

Nobody here is crying over dead Houthis all of a sudden because they were already dying, their boats were being struck and sunk. What folk are pointing out now is that to bomb Yemen proper is different to bombing Houthi boats in the sea. Some recognise this such as France who explicitly declined to join the Americans for that reason. They've said they'll continue combating the Houthis at sea only.

Incidentally, France has an interest in Lebanon not being destroyed by Israel or USA because there's a lot of French investment tied up in Lebanon (former colony). Therefore, France are in constant discussions with Hezbollah, trying to ensure lines aren't crossed that would see an Israeli or US escalation. Hezbollah are Iran-backed, involved in skirmishes with Israel, Death to America and all that just like the Houthis. Yet because there's western economic interests involved, unlike in northern Yemen, Hezbollah are afforded diplomacy while the Houthis are not.

[johnnydun]

2 hours ago, Freedom Farter said:

https://new.thecradle.co/articles-id/250#:~:text=Marib%2C a resource-rich region,Southern Transitional Council (STC).

Marib and Shabwa are shown there. We can see how Saudi ("coalition controlled area" in that diagram) no longer control most of the people in Yemen yet still control nearly all the oil and gas. That situation saw Saudi content with ending the war because the oil and gas was all they ever cared about. Then as you say, the war ceased on the agreement that the Houthis would not try to take the oil and gas areas (in exchange for Saudi ending the mass slaughter of civilians). 

Saudi have actually been expressing their unease over these US and UK bombings of the Houthis because they don't want the Houthis being stung back into action.

Saudi is squabbling with UAE over who gets the Yemeni oil and gas. The "Southern Transitionary Council" is a separatist group who want to recreate South Yemen. Their loyalty is to UAE not Saudi and they control some of the oil and gas flow.

UAE also annexed the Yemeni island of Socotra in 2018 and have been occupying it since.

You're absolutely correct. I commissioned a lot of Balhaf terminal, shown in your diagram on the South Coast. It was taken by AQAP early on in the civil war, with the UAE eventually getting them out. Allegedly the UAE used it as some kind of prison for a while and tortured a number of inmates. 

The French oil company Total still officially operate the terminal, so have therfore been taken to court over human rights violations;

https://amwaj.media/article/inside-story-france-s-total-taken-to-court-over-alleged-uae-violations-in-yemen

Which is probably why, (in your second post) France don't want anything to do with bombing Yemen.

Edited January 14 by johnnydun

[coprolite]

That's your waxwork toff lord cameron come out and justified this because prices would have gone up. I think this means we're bombing brexit next. 

Even if the Houthis are baddies (i don't know enough about Yemeni stuff to judge) this is legally dubious under both domestic and international law and presents terrible optics. 

[Leith Green]

5 minutes ago, coprolite said:

That's your waxwork toff lord cameron come out and justified this because prices would have gone up. I think this means we're bombing brexit next. 

Even if the Houthis are baddies (i don't know enough about Yemeni stuff to judge) this is legally dubious under both domestic and international law and presents terrible optics. 

Its a proxy attack on Iran, because they back the Houthis, Hezbollah, and Hamas (all that sanctioned oil still seems to make them a shit ton of cash for arms) with cash and arms.

I look forward to bombs on London Underground soon.......................

[johnnydun]

5 minutes ago, coprolite said:

That's your waxwork toff lord cameron come out and justified this because prices would have gone up. I think this means we're bombing brexit next. 

Even if the Houthis are baddies (i don't know enough about Yemeni stuff to judge) this is legally dubious under both domestic and international law and presents terrible optics. 

Can't seem to remember them bombing Russia with the recent Oil price hikes, or Somalia when it was their pirates taking on ships.

I guess he is just going to have to order his shit from DHgate 3 days earlier.

[ClydeTon]

12 hours ago, Freedom Farter said:

Where are you getting this slavery thing from? A previous comment in the thread also stated that but its a new claim which seems to have just sprung up on Twitter in the last two days.

Multiple Middle Eastern media outlets and Yemeni human rights groups have accessed them of slavery in various forms. Probably influenced by the Saudis, but there's nothing (that I can find) refuting their claims.

https://english.aawsat.com/home/article/1810456/exclusive-houthis-restore-slavery-yemen (Saudi-owned, London-bases)

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/yemen-ethiopia-women-forced-houthis-stc-sexual-slavery (not Saudi)

The US' report into Yemen prior to the strikes is also damning, even if it doesn't quite spell out slavery - it says a lot.

https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/yemen/

Quote

Significant human rights issues by all parties to the conflict included credible reports of: unlawful or arbitrary killings; enforced disappearances; torture or other cases of cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment; harsh and life-threatening prison conditions; arbitrary arrest and detention; political prisoners and detainees; serious problems with the independence of the judiciary; arbitrary or unlawful interference with privacy; serious abuses in a conflict, including widespread civilian harm and unlawful recruitment or use of child soldiers by all parties to the conflict, particularly the Houthis; serious restrictions on freedom of expression and media, including violence, threats of violence, unjustified arrests or prosecutions against journalists, censorship, and the existence of criminal libel laws; serious restrictions on internet freedom; substantial interference with the freedom of peaceful assembly and freedom of association; severe restrictions of religious freedom; restrictions on freedom of movement; inability of citizens to choose their government peacefully through free and fair elections; serious and unreasonable restrictions on political participation; serious government corruption; serious government restrictions on international human rights organizations; lack of investigation of and accountability for gender-based violence, including but not limited to domestic, intimate partner violence or both, as well as sexual violence; and child, early, and forced marriage and female genital mutilation. There were significant barriers to accessing reproductive health; existence of laws criminalizing consensual same-sex sexual conduct between adults; and existence of the worst forms of child labor.

Yes- this does refer to all parties, including the former government. But it's really hard to see any chance that the Houthis aren't as bad, if not worse.

 

8 hours ago, virginton said:

Erm yes, the world's imperial hyperpower is definitely bombing Yemen due to, err, the Houthis disgraceful lack of support for LGBT rights.

As opposed to that obviously shining beacon of liberal Western values and civil rights called Saudi fucking Arabia on the other side of the border. 

That's not why the Houthis are being attacked, neither is that what I said.

It's one of a multitude of reasons why they are firmly not the Good Guys / victims. See the above in this post as well.

The Saudis are equally awful but they give the yanks oil so they get a free pass, sadly.

Edited January 14 by ClydeTon

[Freedom Farter]

5 hours ago, johnnydun said:

It was taken by AQAP early on in the civil war, with the UAE eventually getting them out

USA at times helped UAE with getting rid of AQAP. I use italics there because the help wasn't very successful. One of Trump's first military actions was to give the go ahead to a joint raid with UAE against al-Qaeda in Yemen. It resulted in a load of dead civilians, children and a pregnant woman - the usual, a downed US helicopter, and no al-Qaeda target because the intelligence had been faulty. It can be read about here: https://theintercept.com/2017/03/09/women-and-children-in-yemeni-village-recall-horror-of-trumps-highly-successful-seal-raid/.

That's not untypical and such outcomes regularly happen because incompetent men make these decisions. Was Trump competent? Is Biden? Is Sunak? Well they're who sign off on these things. I get surprised by folk who recognise Sunak is a disaster on everything else but suspend that opinion of him and fall into line when it comes to military decisions.

We should recognise the importance of precedent as well as the cyclical nature of miltant action. The Houthis are attempting this blockade just now. Well they were blockaded for years by Saudi and UAE. Here's what Human Rights Watch said about it at the time: 

Quote

“The Saudi-led coalition’s military strategy in Yemen has been increasingly built around preventing desperately needed aid and essential goods from reaching civilians, risking millions of lives,” said James Ross, legal and policy director at Human Rights Watch. “The Security Council should urgently sanction Saudi and other coalition leaders responsible for blocking food, fuel, and medicine, causing hunger, sickness, and death.”

“UN Security Council members, particularly the United States, United Kingdom, France, and other coalition allies, have shielded Saudi Arabia from serious international scrutiny even though the Saudi-led coalition has committed numerous atrocities in Yemen,”

Nothing was done, nobody was sanctioned, the UN was powerless due to vetoes. 

During it all, our Tory government decided the UK military should train the Saudis and the Emiratis on how best to enforce the blockade: https://www.declassifieduk.org/paralysing-a-nation-evidence-emerges-of-royal-navys-complicity-in-saudi-led-sea-blockade-of-yemen/

It's little wonder the Houthis empathise with Gazans' current strife having experienced similar themselves very recently. So when they watch the videos of badly burned Gazan children yelling in pain with no morphine, it probably hits that bit harder. This is the reason the Houthis are giving for their attempted blockade, to pressure the world (USA, mostly) into forcing Israel to end its blockade of Gaza. There's a good chance they're being sincere there. The first Houthi action at sea didn't come until November 19th last year, over a month after Israel's Gaza offensive began. That suggests it was a response to what they'd watched unfold in that time.

Edited January 14 by Freedom Farter

[GHF-23]

17 minutes ago, ClydeTon said:

Multiple Middle Eastern media outlets and Yemeni human rights groups have accessed them of slavery in various forms. Probably influenced by the Saudis, but there's nothing (that I can find) refuting their claims.

https://english.aawsat.com/home/article/1810456/exclusive-houthis-restore-slavery-yemen (Saudi-owned, London-bases)

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/yemen-ethiopia-women-forced-houthis-stc-sexual-slavery (not Saudi)

The US' report into Yemen prior to the strikes is also damning, even if it doesn't quite spell out slavery - it says a lot.

https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/yemen/

Yes- this does refer to all parties, including the former government. But it's really hard to see any chance that the Houthis aren't as bad, if not worse.

 

 

Quite the climb down from "(the Houthi's, singularly) have quite literally reinstated slavery in their part of Yemen." then.