TxRover Posted April 21 Author Share Posted April 21 The problem is a different format for the playoffs at this level vs those below. The genesis is 12/10/10/10. The solutions generally aren’t practical due to scheduling and monetary considerations…except automatic promotion/relegation, which is considered unacceptable, or 14/14/14, which is considered too crowded due to OFx4 requirements. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caro-Kann Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 Is VAR used in the Premiership playoff games? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaggyness Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 20 minutes ago, Caro-Kann said: Is VAR used in the Premiership playoff games? Yes 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagsfan57 Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 29 minutes ago, jaggyness said: Yes Only in the final 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmare Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 1 hour ago, TxRover said: The problem is a different format for the playoffs at this level vs those below. The genesis is 12/10/10/10. The solutions generally aren’t practical due to scheduling and monetary considerations…except automatic promotion/relegation, which is considered unacceptable, or 14/14/14, which is considered too crowded due to OFx4 requirements. You can have 4 OF games in a 14 team league, or indeed a 16 team league. It all depends on how you structure the split(s). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxRover Posted April 21 Author Share Posted April 21 54 minutes ago, Nightmare said: You can have 4 OF games in a 14 team league, or indeed a 16 team league. It all depends on how you structure the split(s). Perhaps. The reality is 12 with a 6/6 split was chosen betting that the OF would always both be top 6…in a 14 or 16 league with a multiple split you potentially run a higher risk of one or the other dropping too far. It’s extremely unlikely, but TV likes to deal in assurances, and anything that weakened that assurance would also weaken the payment. The structure of the game makes more than 40 games at the top unwelcome/unfeasible, and it’s only accommodated with late entry to various competitions now anyway. For instance, 14 team league generally requires either a 6/8 split or a 7/7, both of which introduce unwelcome elements…and often result in an unmanageable 44 to 46 games unless the split occurs after 26 games…which robs nearly half the teams of a big payday and overpays the others. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 A 16 team league with a split gives a 37 game season. Scottish football shouldn't be modelling our league around the needs of teams like Livingston and St Johnstone who have a business model of selling to away fans. The benefits of OF games are overstated anyway. We get bigger crowds v Dundee and Aberdeen 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 Honesty believe it’s pointless trying to argue for anything different to 12-10-10-10. Your not getting anything else through the voting structure 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmare Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 19 minutes ago, TxRover said: Perhaps. The reality is 12 with a 6/6 split was chosen betting that the OF would always both be top 6…in a 14 or 16 league with a multiple split you potentially run a higher risk of one or the other dropping too far. It’s extremely unlikely, but TV likes to deal in assurances, and anything that weakened that assurance would also weaken the payment. The structure of the game makes more than 40 games at the top unwelcome/unfeasible, and it’s only accommodated with late entry to various competitions now anyway. For instance, 14 team league generally requires either a 6/8 split or a 7/7, both of which introduce unwelcome elements…and often result in an unmanageable 44 to 46 games unless the split occurs after 26 games…which robs nearly half the teams of a big payday and overpays the others. Excluding the anomaly of Rangers (RIP) being in the lower leagues, the OF haven’t finished outside the top 4 of Scottish football since the 1980s. And the financial disparity between those two and the rest of the league is far bigger now than it was back then. Any split would get 4x OF games, whether it was a top 4 or top 6, so I’m not buying that as a reason TV companies wouldn’t back a larger league. There are unwelcome elements in any split, including the setup we currently have. More unwelcome for me is the nonsense scenario in Scottish football right now where you can play the same team 6, 7 or even more than that times per season. It’s just very dull. The bolded at the end is ultimately why league expansion won’t happen any time soon, though. Because of the pathetic self-serving mentality of clubs in Scottish football who are so dependent on a couple more home games where they can cram a few thousand bigots into their ground and make some extra cash. I thought this kind of outlook might have changed after our clubs (correctly) voted not to allow Rangers back into the top flight following their liquidation, and where it was proven that we didn’t need the OF to have a strong, successful Scottish football. But unfortunately there are still clubs in the top tier who will refuse to change the current setup out of pure selfishness and greed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuctifano Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 Model has QP just about odds on vs Arbroath. Re: the playoffs, even thought we've finished 4th last 2 seasons and could still do this season, I still think it makes more sense for 2nd vs 3rd to play off followed by the winner vs 11th as that evens the number of games played and also 4th in a ten team league shouldn't have a shot at promotion. Then the argument is there's no real advantage for finishing 2nd over 3rd other than having the 2nd leg at home. Part of me likes the idea that the 2nd place club would go through if it's a draw in such a scenario, but that's effectively giving them a goal of a start and if you phrase it like that it seems like madness. As said, unless we somehow end up with a stronger TV deal meaning we're less reliant on gate money, the format isn't changing any time soon. 12-10-10-10 is certainly the most stable it's been in my lifetime, been like this for nearly 25 years whereas in the 80s and 90s the top flight kept changing between 12 and 10 teams. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 1 hour ago, invergowrie arab said: A 16 team league with a split gives a 37 game season. Scottish football shouldn't be modelling our league around the needs of teams like Livingston and St Johnstone who have a business model of selling to away fans. The benefits of OF games are overstated anyway. We get bigger crowds v Dundee and Aberdeen And their fans don’t show the same level of cuntishness. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 1 hour ago, invergowrie arab said: Scottish football shouldn't be modelling our league around the needs of teams like Livingston and St Johnstone who have a business model of selling to away fans. Pardon? We make far, far, more money from non-football stuff than matchdays. We could play in the Championship and still turn a profit without any fuss. The league sizes are fine IMO. The biggest obvious changes for me is the bottom 2 in the top flight should be automatically relegated, and then 2nd v 3rd play off for promotion. I think the play offs below that should be 2nd v 3rd then v 9th, and then in League Two bottom is automatically relegated with Highland v Lowland for promotion. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 8 minutes ago, Fuctifano said: 12-10-10-10 is certainly the most stable it's been in my lifetime, been like this for nearly 25 years whereas in the 80s and 90s the top flight kept changing between 12 and 10 teams. I would need someone like@craigkillieor @HibeeJibeeto confirm but I believe it’s the most stable structure we’ve ever had. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 19 minutes ago, Fuctifano said: 12-10-10-10 is certainly the most stable it's been in my lifetime, been like this for nearly 25 years whereas in the 80s and 90s the top flight kept changing between 12 and 10 teams. 5 minutes ago, parsforlife said: I would need someone like@craigkillieor @HibeeJibeeto confirm but I believe it’s the most stable structure we’ve ever had. Top division format in Scotland yrs (chronological from 1890-91) 1 11 teams 1 12 teams 8 10 teams 1 11 teams 1 10 teams 1 12 teams 2 14 teams 1 16 teams 7 18 teams 4 20 teams 2 18 teams 3 22 teams 16 20 teams (6 war emergency) 9 16 teams 20 18 teams 11 10 teams playing x4 2 12 teams playing x4 3 10 teams playing x4 3 12 teams playing x4 6 10 teams playing x4 25+ 12 teams playing x4 with split Number of divisions in Scottish League yrs (chronological from 1890-91) 3 1 division 22 2 divisions 6 1 division 2 2 divisions 3 3 divisions 14 2 divisions (6 war emergency) 9 3 divisions 20 2 divisions 19 3 divisions 31+ 4 divisions 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ghost of B A R P Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 4 hours ago, invergowrie arab said: A 16 team league with a split gives a 37 game season. Scottish football shouldn't be modelling our league around the needs of teams like Livingston and St Johnstone who have a business model of selling to away fans. The benefits of OF games are overstated anyway. We get bigger crowds v Dundee and Aberdeen A 16-team league with a split into four sections of four after 30 games gives a 36-game season (with the post-split games evenly home and away). It also virtually guarantees the broadcasters their four games between the sisters (added bonus being that two of them are late in the run in). This is and always has been the answer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuctifano Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 (edited) 50 minutes ago, The Ghost of B A R P said: A 16-team league with a split into four sections of four after 30 games gives a 36-game season (with the post-split games evenly home and away). It also virtually guarantees the broadcasters their four games between the sisters (added bonus being that two of them are late in the run in). This is and always has been the answer. I generally like this sort of idea but I think it would need a playoff system for the last European spot else teams 5-13 are playing for not much- this is easier since the Conference League has come in. Currently, the Czech and Bulgarian leagues are both 16 team leagues which split 3 ways after 30 games but split 6/4/6. In Czech league the 4 teams in the middle play a straight 2-leg knockout series for the last Conference League place. In Bulgaria the team which finishes top of the middle section plays off against the team sitting in the last qualifying slot in the top section for that last Conference League place. Romania is also a 16 team league but splits 6-10 with the top half playing a double round robin and bottom half playing once for 40/39 games. Again there are playoffs where the top team in the bottom half can get into Europe. That's probably too many games though given the already congested calendar Edited April 21 by Fuctifano 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob1885 Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 12 hours ago, Granny Danger said: Now we’ve effectively been promoted I can say this without being accused of having an agenda. The playoff format is a farce. It should be one up and one down, then second bottom against second top. As far as the Championship goes this season it’s even more of a farce given that Raith is so far ahead of their third place rivals. nah, f**k them 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ghost of B A R P Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 16 minutes ago, Fuctifano said: I generally like this sort of idea but I think it would need a playoff system for the last European spot else teams 5-13 are playing for not much- this is easier since the Conference League has come in. Totally agree. I’d go radical and have winners of section 5-8 and section 9-12 play-off in a set piece final (Tynecastle or Easter Road type gig) for the final European spot. Aim is to keep it maximally competitive (and give the broadcasters another wee sweetie). At the bottom, I’d have one go down automatically, second bottom into a FAIR play-off with 2-3-4 from the league below. Additional benefit here is that being safe all the way down to 14th might be an incentive for top flight teams to vote for change (currently only safe at 10th). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneteaminglasgow Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 Only one automatically down from a 16 team league would be absolutely shite. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmare Posted April 21 Share Posted April 21 (edited) 9 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said: Only one automatically down from a 16 team league would be absolutely shite. Aye, if it’s a 16 team division you need 2 down automatically. And possibly 14th going into a playoff with 3rd place in the tier below as well. 16 would definitely be my preferred size of division, though. Not too fussed about which one of the many potential split structures is selected, but just getting a wider variety of opponents each season and greater movement between the tiers would be a big improvement in our game imo. Edited April 21 by Nightmare 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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