If you removed the 65+ vote from last night...

[Banterous]

I think I've had enough of this forum.

[Reverend Maynard]

Clearly bollocks. A pensioner who turns 80 in 2014 was born in 1934. Which means that they in fact played no part whatsoever in the creation of the welfare state: they weren't even old enough to vote on the matter in 1945, and claim partial credit though that. None of them were part of the generation of politicians who argued for the idea.

They were on the other hand old enough to vote for the Scottish Unionist party en masse in 1955: giving the sectarian forerunners of the Tories a majority of the Scottish vote at that election.

I'm afraid the continual whitewashing of old people as grizzled war veterans no longer washes. The majority are now war babies or post-war, who contributed nothing but decline and failure for the wider society, and self-preservation for themselves. Deal with it.

Swing and a miss. ( yours I believe?) They were part of the " post war consensus" ( you know fine well what that is) they played an active part in trying to build a better post war future for themselves and their children. Part of that was the belief that " the state would look after you" . Thatcher sold them out, but that's another story.

Fair to say you're wide of the mark.

Can someone do me an old age pensioner " deal with it" GIF. ?

[Audaces Fortuna Juvat]

How many folk who voted No in 1999 for the parliament voted No again yesterday?

Around 30% voted against the parliament (the rich, the Tories, the pensioners) and I'm guessing a number of them were at it once again. I'd love to speak to some of them to see if they realised they'd made a mistake back then - or stuck by that ridiculous decision?

Being on the right side of history is definitely making me feel a bit better about the whole affair. Unfortunately my dad and my father-in-law probably won't be alive to see it (their words - not mine), and it'll be down to my kids (18 months and 1 week respectively) to help get Yes over the line next time.

I voted no to the Scottish parliament in 1999 because it was devolved. I thought then, and still think, it should be all or nothing. I'm neither rich, Tory nor a pensioner.

[pandarilla]

I think I've had enough of this forum.

Oh come on Banterous - you're so well-liked in here, and respected. I'm not sure the forum will be worth it if you go.

Please reconsider?

[vikingTON]

I think I've had enough of this forum.

Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out.

[CowdenConvert]

So if you could you would have our parliament removed?

I reckon if there was a referendum on the parliament right now it would gather a 90% Keep the thing result.

I would actually, but agree the overwhelming majority would want to keep it. I agree it's done some good things but at how much cost? It hasn't raised any additional revenue so everything it has done could have been done by central government. I think the scottish gov is spending money it doesn't have or central gov would have done free uni education, prescriptions etc.

[pandarilla]

I voted no to the Scottish parliament in 1999 because it was devolved. I thought then, and still think, it should be all or nothing. I'm neither rich, Tory nor a pensioner.

Christ on a bike.

So would you get rid if you could?

[pub car king]

In the words of groundskeeper Willie. "Other scots ruined Scotland"

[Audaces Fortuna Juvat]

Some people work well beyond the age of 55: others do not. Which means that while 55-64 were the only working-age sector to vote both No and by a large margin, we can't actually tell how many of those were retired, or not of working age if they were women over, say, 60.

The Ashcroft figures suggest that the working-age vote was somewhere between Yes and No in a close margin: without a nuanced breakdown of the 55-64s we can't say for sure.

Cheers, will look at this a bit further on Sunday as I am verging on being just about sober enough to crawl up to bed, and my drinking has nothing to do with celebration. Any joy I felt this morning was tempered with concern with friends who voted yes. The retarded cretins causing trouble tonight have removed the last vestige of any happiness I might have felt.

[vikingTON]

Swing and a miss. ( yours I believe?) They were part of the " post war consensus" ( you know fine well what that is) they played an active part in trying to build a better post war future for themselves and their children. Part of that was the belief that " the state would look after you" . Thatcher sold them out, but that's another story.

Fair to say you're wide of the mark.

Can someone do me an old age pensioner " deal with it" GIF. ?

They didn't form this consensus, and didn't create the Welfare State: this was your initial claim. Your current backtracking that a majority vote for the Scottish Unionists of 1955 was, in fact, a demonstration of gushing enthusiasm for the Welfare state is utterly, utterly laughable.

In fact, the very same post-war generation were the ones who readily snapped up Thatcher's Right To Buy, effectively bribing themselves off any commitment to political opposition. That is what happened, and that is why they voted No yesterday.

They were the only group to do so, and will not be missed in twenty years time when we have another opportunity.

[pandarilla]

I would actually, but agree the overwhelming majority would want to keep it. I agree it's done some good things but at how much cost? It hasn't raised any additional revenue so everything it has done could have been done by central government. I think the scottish gov is spending money it doesn't have or central gov would have done free uni education, prescriptions etc.

Have you been in a hole for the last 15 years? Which WM government do you reckon would've funded free uni and prescriptions?

I'm genuinely shocked that folk are even admitting to voting No in 1999 - let alone not regretting their decision.

And while I'm at it 'spending money it doesn't have'? Seriously?

[Audaces Fortuna Juvat]

Christ on a bike.

So would you get rid if you could?

More a black and white opinion squire; I'd prefer independence to another layer of government. I may have failed to make that clear, but I don't see the point in duplicating governance and administration, nor is it financially expedient.

I suppose we're stuck with it as it stands, but it's far from ideal.

........................and there is no empirical evidence whatsoever that the Jesus chappie ever rode a bike

[pandarilla]

They didn't form this consensus, and didn't create the Welfare State: this was your initial claim. Your current backtracking that a majority vote for the Scottish Unionists of 1955 was, in fact, a demonstration of gushing enthusiasm for the Welfare state is utterly, utterly laughable.

In fact, the very same post-war generation were the ones who readily snapped up Thatcher's Right To Buy, effectively bribing themselves off any commitment to political opposition. That is what happened, and that is why they voted No yesterday.

They were the only group to do so, and will not be missed in twenty years time when we have another opportunity.

Don't forget they were the last generation to 'walk into a job straight from school' or have a completely state-funded university experience - grants an all!

[scottishkilty]

You are bitter twisted yes voters...except the majority didn't want change....when your getting on would you gamble with hollow words and no definitive answers

..in fact would any NORMAL half brained person vote on one guys vision...he just wanted to go down in history with pillocks following him...prats...well done you no voters....now get over it you dummy spitting idiots xxx

[pandarilla]

You are bitter twisted yes voters...except the majority didn't want change....when your getting on would you gamble with hollow words and no definitive answers

..in fact would any NORMAL half brained person vote on one guys vision...he just wanted to go down in history with pillocks following him...prats...well done you no voters....now get over it you dummy spitting idiots xxx

Are you still here?

[vikingTON]

You are bitter twisted yes voters...except the majority didn't want change....when your getting on would you gamble with hollow words and no definitive answers

..in fact would any NORMAL half brained person vote on one guys vision...he just wanted to go down in history with pillocks following him...prats...well done you no voters....now get over it you dummy spitting idiots xxx

^^^ word salad

[The_Kincardine]

My auld dear was born in 1927 and yesterday walked to the polling station in Muirhouse in Motherwell and cast her vote for "Aye". Her reasoning was that she wanted to support her Hamilton-dwelling grandsons who are both big independence fans.

Had I been in Motherwell yesterday I'd have taken her in the car to cast her vote whichever side it was going to. I disagree with the box she put her cross in but, since she has lived through a couple of dozen governments, I absolutely uphold her right to vote.

[pandarilla]

My auld dear was born in 1927 and yesterday walked to the polling station in Muirhouse in Motherwell and cast her vote for "Aye". Her reasoning was that she wanted to support her Hamilton-dwelling grandsons who are both big independence fans.

Had I been in Motherwell yesterday I'd have taken her in the car to cast her vote whichever side it was going to. I disagree with the box she put her cross in but, since she has lived through a couple of dozen governments, I absolutely uphold her right to vote.

Your mum still gets to use the wee gem - 'we fought the Nazis for you...'

Just to clarify no-one (at least not in a serious way - I nearly run a few old dears over on their way to the polls yesterday) is suggesting they don't have the right to vote whichever way they please. Its about the much-discussed issue of the baby-boomer generation - and how they had their cake and ate it (then got another few dozen cakes and left future generations with the Greggs bill).

[Reverend Maynard]

They didn't form this consensus, and didn't create the Welfare State: this was your initial claim. Your current backtracking that a majority vote for the Scottish Unionists of 1955 was, in fact, a demonstration of gushing enthusiasm for the Welfare state is utterly, utterly laughable.

In fact, the very same post-war generation were the ones who readily snapped up Thatcher's Right To Buy, effectively bribing themselves off any commitment to political opposition. That is what happened, and that is why they voted No yesterday.

They were the only group to do so, and will not be missed in twenty years time when we have another opportunity.

You're good, I'll give you that. This is gong to decend into claim and counter claim, a bit like the whole referendum really. Baby boomers is a term you used to describe "all pensioners" but refers exclusively to a post war generation. My point is that there are plenty of pensioner voters who did their national service post 45 still kicking around that have a better grasp of what happened In the 1955 election than you do. The post war consensus went up to the early 70s , which I note you are not acknowledging, so even some baby boomers would have been part of it. Your selective use of data points in history helps to build your argument, but fails to take into account the bigger picture , again much like the YES arguments in the referendum.

Regardless, you have no grace in defeat, and a I for one, welcome the fact many pensioners will be sleeping more soundly tonight .

[vikingTON]

You're good, I'll give you that. This is gong to decend into claim and counter claim, a bit like the whole referendum really. Baby boomers is a term you used to describe "all pensioners" but refers exclusively to a post war generation. My point is that there are plenty of pensioner voters who did their national service post 45 still kicking around that have a better grasp of what happened In the 1955 election than you do.

There really aren't 'many': 65 is now born in 1949: I suspect only half of the current old biddies were even able to vote in 1955. And even those who did will have to account for their choice of open bigots in 1955, just as they will for choosing a cretinous constitutional settlement for their own self-interest in 2014.