doulikefish Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Reading that the House of lords is currently debating the proposition of having a second referendum. Its strange to think that our undemocratic, unelected chamber of peers seem to actually be more in favour of doing what is morally right than our government are. I am actually quite glad we have them. Abolish the house of lords headlines in the express 2mr then and loads of memes of soial media incoming 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DI Bruce Robertson Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Struggling to square VTs views on segregation within the younger academia & his views on NI, surely there is a cut off point where segregation = good &Segregation = bad?By segregation, I mean segregation along religious lines.It's arguable that NI would have benefitted from a joint religious approach to schooling, where all denominations were educated together, with add-ons as to their own faith.Totally agree that the secular approach in France has failed tho. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fide Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 (edited) 19 hours ago, topcat(The most tip top) said: Catholic denominational education had been failing them for generations before the state intervened. It's the state funding as opposed to the denomination that changed things. Erm no: the main reasons for a lack of social mobility among the Catholic minority in Scotland involved sectarian practices in employment, as well as access to higher education. As both Finlay and Devine have shown, denominational schooling (with state support) allowed the Catholic minority to develop their own middle-classes and the academic excellence of many Catholic state schools allowed them to break into higher education from the 1960s. Quote If there were millions of French Muslims being pressured by their Imans into sending their children to shit Muslim schools to keep them free from heathen influence then we might have a parallel here. The parallel we're making is between your apparently enlightened system of French secular education at all costs, versus a pluralist system in which the state supports the parents right to choose between schools of different denominations. One policy has successfully eliminated all forms of serious sectarian division in society; the other is creating a marginalised community with no prospects in their society and who are increasingly vulnerable to Islamist dogma and the Front National respectively. Tough call working out which policy is successful and which one is not. Edited March 7, 2017 by vikingTON 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DI Bruce Robertson Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Are you one of those helped up by the multi-denominational approach of Scottish education? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 2 hours ago, DI Bruce Robertson said: Struggling to square VTs views on segregation within the younger academia & his views on NI, surely there is a cut off point where segregation = good & Segregation = bad? By segregation, I mean segregation along religious lines. It's arguable that NI would have benefitted from a joint religious approach to schooling, where all denominations were educated together, with add-ons as to their own faith. Totally agree that the secular approach in France has failed tho. Denominational education is not segregation. A child of any religious background (or none at all) can attend either a non-denominational or a denominational school. That is the parent's choice. Setting up walls around entire communities or closing off entry to entire sections of the industrial economy based on religious background is segregation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DI Bruce Robertson Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Denominational education is not segregation. A child of any religious background (or none at all) can attend either a non-denominational or a denominational school. That is the parent's choice. Setting up walls around entire communities or closing off entry to entire sections of the industrial economy based on religious background is segregation. Ok, point taken. But.......In my experience (bumpkin area in NE Scotland) the catholic primary school was small & over subscribed - with RC raised pupils given preference over non RC pupils, despite the catchment area.In my opinion, that is a form of segregation based on religion.As an aside, lots of atheist / agnostic parents wanted their children to attend this school, due to its reputation for producing a higher standard of student.So, when is difference based on religion good? And conversely, when is it bad? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 The right of Catholics to receive education in denominational schools is guaranteed by the Education Act (1918). The issue there is not 'segregation', but rather a failure to meet demand by the local authorities. The bumpkin local council should be establishing another, excellent denominational school in the area to cater for the choices of the parents. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 3 hours ago, DI Bruce Robertson said: Struggling to square VTs views on segregation within the younger academia & his views on NI, surely there is a cut off point where segregation = good & Segregation = bad? By segregation, I mean segregation along religious lines. It's arguable that NI would have benefitted from a joint religious approach to schooling, where all denominations were educated together, with add-ons as to their own faith. Totally agree that the secular approach in France has failed tho. Don't try to square them they're contradictory. No one should be surprised by that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DI Bruce Robertson Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 The right of Catholics to receive education in denominational schools is guaranteed by the Education Act (1918). The issue there is not 'segregation', but rather a failure to meet demand by the local authorities. The bumpkin local council should be establishing another, excellent denominational school in the area to cater for the choices of the parents. Ok, so the right of Catholics is enshrined through a government act ( albeit, 100 years ago) what about us atheist or plain thinking non-believers who simply want a good education for our kids?Also, still can't see how this squares with your attitude to "the failed statelet" - your words?When does segregation, i.e. Denominational schooling become bad ( as opposed to good)? When do kids become adults and learn to integrate with the wider community, if not at school then where/ when? I'm not saying that the secular approach taken by France is the answer, however, I think ghettoisation is a lot more to do with social attitudes/ job opportunities/ and sadly, the feeling by immigrants that they need to stick together- a truly sad endightment on our society.If you truly believe religion based schools are an advantage to minority groups - why are 18-25 yr old immigrants to Europe amongst the least likely to find a decent career? I'm talking about immigrants from North Africa who have had a completely denominational education. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 1 minute ago, DI Bruce Robertson said: Ok, so the right of Catholics is enshrined through a government act ( albeit, 100 years ago) what about us atheist or plain thinking non-believers who simply want a good education for our kids? No parent is entitled by law to get a "good education" for their kids. Your right to receive Catholic education is not enshrined by law, if you are not a Catholic. Where the excellent school in the area is (unsurprisingly) denominational and there is an excess of demand, then by law and by right the places ought to go to those whose parents are Catholic. Fairly straightforward stuff. Quote Also, still can't see how this squares with your attitude to "the failed statelet" - your words? There is nothing to square, as the issues are entirely unrelated. Quote When does segregation, i.e. Denominational schooling become bad ( as opposed to good)? When do kids become adults and learn to integrate with the wider community, if not at school then where/ when? Denominational schooling is not "segregation". This was demonstrated in a previous point, you backpedaled from this ("point taken"), only to then build a straw man argument about what happens when there is an excess of demand for denominational schooling. That is not "segregation" either. Children integrate with the wider community during their daily lives in Scotland. That's because denominational education is not in fact "segregation", the wider society is not "segregated" at all and so Catholics and Protestants interact all the time. There is no discernable issue in Scottish society about a "lack of integration" of Catholics - that problem was in fact solved by denominational schooling and there is no valid reason to undo that excellent work. Quote I'm not saying that the secular approach taken by France is the answer, however, I think ghettoisation is a lot more to do with social attitudes/ job opportunities/ and sadly, the feeling by immigrants that they need to stick together- a truly sad endightment on our society. Social attitudes towards and job opportunities for French Muslims have not been improved one bit by a one-size-fits-all approach to state schooling. The historical evidence proves that these barriers were removed in the case of the Catholic minority in Scotland by the provision of denominational schooling, the consequent rise of a Catholic middle-class and the academic excellence of denominational schools allowing Catholics to break through an increasingly redundant, sectarian biases in industry and higher education institutes. Quote If you truly believe religion based schools are an advantage to minority groups - why are 18-25 yr old immigrants to Europe amongst the least likely to find a decent career? I'm talking about immigrants from North Africa who have had a completely denominational education. Another straw man. The issues facing first-generation immigrants are completely different to the issues faced by an already established, minority population within a multicultural state. That is where French education policy is evidently failing the second and third generation of North African immigrants; whereas working with the leaders of the Scottish Catholic community proved to be an overwhelming success story in Scotland to this day. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 32 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: Don't try to square them they're contradictory. No one should be surprised by that. Whereas the contradiction in your ramblings is between your own narrow beliefs and all available historical evidence. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blootoon87 Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Seems quite odd that virginton is defending religious schooling (Catholic anyway) when he spends his whole time on here taking the piss out of 'bumpkins', and 'university of lifers'. I'd have thought that MENSA candidates like him would have outgrown organised religion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 3 hours ago, DI Bruce Robertson said: Ok, point taken. But....... In my experience (bumpkin area in NE Scotland) the catholic primary school was small & over subscribed - with RC raised pupils given preference over non RC pupils, despite the catchment area. In my opinion, that is a form of segregation based on religion. As an aside, lots of atheist / agnostic parents wanted their children to attend this school, due to its reputation for producing a higher standard of student. So, when is difference based on religion good? And conversely, when is it bad? Surely an RC school giving priority to RC pupils in a situation of high demand is entirely logical isn't it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Blootoon87 said: Seems quite odd that virginton is defending religious schooling (Catholic anyway) when he spends his whole time on here taking the piss out of 'bumpkins', and 'university of lifers'. I'd have thought that MENSA candidates like him would have outgrown organised religion. Don't call him virginton, if you do he'll start disagreeing with your posts even though he doesn't really disagree and even although it contradicts other posts he makes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Blootoon87 said: Seems quite odd that virginton is defending religious schooling (Catholic anyway) when he spends his whole time on here taking the piss out of 'bumpkins', and 'university of lifers'. I'd have thought that MENSA candidates like him would have outgrown organised religion. I make that six utterly nonsensical straw men in the space of two sentences. Your bitterness is deeply savoury. (^^^ avid protector of denominational schools) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 It's normally university of lifers that are trying to demonstrate their impressive intellect that start with the "lol sky fairy" and flying spaghetti monster pish. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Seems quite odd that virginton is defending religious schooling (Catholic anyway) when he spends his whole time on here taking the piss out of 'bumpkins', and 'university of lifers'. I'd have thought that MENSA candidates like him would have outgrown organised religion. It's how, for good or ill, memetic entities survive 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Granny Danger said: Don't call him virginton, if you do he'll start disagreeing with your posts even though he doesn't really disagree and even although it contradicts other posts he makes. That is, though, his entire MO...to take a contrary view, flamboyantly, on anything irrespective of whatever he's said before 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 11 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said: It's how, for good or ill, memetic entities survive I have no idea what "memetic entities" are but I absolutely love the sound of it and will use it on every occasion I can. Probably in the singular... ...and almost definitely incorrectly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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