Double Winning St Johnstone FC Thread

[The Saintee]

@RandomGuy. 

Could be the next Andre Villas Boas.

[tree house tam]

I'm all aboard the RandomGuy.  for next Sporting Director - Chief Scout - Technical director - Next manager etc type post. Just as long as he doesn't have to show his skills on the training  pitch, I know the "I've played against 18 stone men in the pub league" is some qualification but I also remember his half time run out on the hallowed Mcdiarmid turf.

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, Radford said:

When Steve Lomas went to Millwall, there was a guy called Alex Aldridge who essentially ran a fan account. He's now Head of Recruitment at Stoke City, having filled the same role at The Den.

Dream big @RandomGuy. and you'll be getting the adulation reserved for Steve Brown and Kirsten Robertson in a few years.

Get those dossiers compiled and sent in to McDiarmid. 

IIRC there was a boy who did one of the Scottish Fitba' analytics Twitter accounts got himself a gig at Livi doing analysis and ended up at Wigan off the back of that.

[RandomGuy.]

36 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

IIRC there was a boy who did one of the Scottish Fitba' analytics Twitter accounts got himself a gig at Livi doing analysis and ended up at Wigan off the back of that.

I think I know the boy you're on about from Twitter, and I'm terrified I turn out like some of them. Theres one or two who, if you look through their timelines, have gone from fairly passionate football guys to just posting stuff like this...

After spending longer making it than actually watching football. You then get all the others saying how great and beautiful it is. 

To me thats just a fucking mess that literally nobody is going to gain anything from looking at, horrible thought to think you can go so far down the rabbit hole you start believing a list of numbers, and photos of lines, is somehow more important than watching the match.

[die hard doonhamer]

14 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

Pretty much. Think Robbie Deas, Iain Wilson, Dan Pybus and Luke McCowan all verging on having breakthrough seasons on paper. Would hope theres someone at the club keeping an actual eye on them in matches to see whether the figures translate onto the actual pitch.

I find it really interesting that both Wilson and Pybus are on that list, given that they were part of what was possibly the worst midfield seen at Queens in 2 decades last season. Wilson is one of these players that looks decent, but if you look at the games he played in the Championship over 2 loan spells at Queens, he is yet to come out on the winning side at that level. I've seen it mentioned that Pybus comes out really well in defensive stats for young midfielders, do you have stats that show how often he gives possession away? Having watched a good amount of him, he has a great engine on him, and does get stuck in making challenges, but then often just gives the ball away again because he isn't actually that good.

[RandomGuy.]

7 minutes ago, die hard doonhamer said:

I find it really interesting that both Wilson and Pybus are on that list, given that they were part of what was possibly the worst midfield seen at Queens in 2 decades last season. Wilson is one of these players that looks decent, but if you look at the games he played in the Championship over 2 loan spells at Queens, he is yet to come out on the winning side at that level. I've seen it mentioned that Pybus comes out really well in defensive stats for young midfielders, do you have stats that show how often he gives possession away? Having watched a good amount of him, he has a great engine on him, and does get stuck in making challenges, but then often just gives the ball away again because he isn't actually that good.

Think this is why I'm worried about putting too much stock into the figures tbh. Its alright for providing depth to what you see, or maybe challenging it, but it only tells a tiny part of each story.

According to figures, Pybus was attempting 40.27 passes "per 90", successful 74.7% of the time. You then look at his forward passes, and he was only accurate in 59% of the 15.31 he attempted. Most of his completed passes were sideways, his "average pass length" was the longest of your CMs last season.

On paper, he comes across as someone who sits in midfield, pressurises opposition midfields, makes interceptions and then shuttles the ball to a better player. Not pretty but a player like that can be important in certain set ups. I think hes the type of player you see looking good in some ways, and average in other, and keep an eye on them to see if that shows on the pitch, and whether it looks like they're improving and could make a step up.

[The Marly]

I'm all aboard the RandomGuy.  for next Sporting Director - Chief Scout - Technical director - Next manager etc type post. Just as long as he doesn't have to show his skills on the training  pitch, I know the "I've played against 18 stone men in the pub league" is some qualification but I also remember his half time run out on the hallowed Mcdiarmid turf.

Do you have to be 18 stone to play in the pub league?

[scottmcleanscontacts]

Think this is why I'm worried about putting too much stock into the figures tbh. Its alright for providing depth to what you see, or maybe challenging it, but it only tells a tiny part of each story.
According to figures, Pybus was attempting 40.27 passes "per 90", successful 74.7% of the time. You then look at his forward passes, and he was only accurate in 59% of the 15.31 he attempted. Most of his completed passes were sideways, his "average pass length" was the longest of your CMs last season.
On paper, he comes across as someone who sits in midfield, pressurises opposition midfields, makes interceptions and then shuttles the ball to a better player. Not pretty but a player like that can be important in certain set ups. I think hes the type of player you see looking good in some ways, and average in other, and keep an eye on them to see if that shows on the pitch, and whether it looks like they're improving and could make a step up.

Stats are shite. Garbage.

According to stats, Serge Aurier is one of the best right backs on the planet. We know this to be shite.

Stats are the reason AVB made a total arse of two very good jobs where he has two very good squads.

They are the reason Iain Cathro was a blatant failure at Hearts.

And so on.

They have their place, but their importance has to be questioned - an example is VVD at Liverpool. According to the data he barely makes a challenge. If you watch him you'll see why but on paper it would appear he can't defend.

Thank f**k the game is played on grass.

[The Marly]

Stats are shite. Garbage.

According to stats, Serge Aurier is one of the best right backs on the planet. We know this to be shite.

Stats are the reason AVB made a total arse of two very good jobs where he has two very good squads.

They are the reason Iain Cathro was a blatant failure at Hearts.

And so on.

They have their place, but their importance has to be questioned - an example is VVD at Liverpool. According to the data he barely makes a challenge. If you watch him you'll see why but on paper it would appear he can't defend.

Thank f**k the game is played on grass.

Stats are important in some sports, tennis, golf etc. Not sure they have the same relevance to football. I remember a Man United match back in Fergie's day when they needed a point away to Blackburn to win the league, a point would also have seen Blackburn just about safe from relegation. 1-1 with twenty minutes to go and Fergie brings on Scholes who was returning from injury. He was clearly told to just keep the ball, and Blackburn decided to retreat into their own half. Scholes made some ridiculous amount of passes but he was basically passing to United's defence and getting it back. His passing stats were brilliant for a cameo appearance but in reality meant f**k all.

[RandomGuy.]

7 minutes ago, scottmcleanscontacts said:

According to stats, Serge Aurier is one of the best right backs on the planet. 

Where have you plucked that from?

Site I use has a basic ranking system. Aurier isn't even in the top 10 full backs in the EPL based on that.

I'm trying to make it clear stats and figures shouldn't be used to make decisions. In terms of scouting etc., it should only really be used to find people of interest, and you then go and actually see them/speak to people about them/get them on trial, before signing them. Clubs are clearly using this, as if you look at the National League down south, a couple of leaders in categories have been signed by Peterborough over the 12 months.

Its all about learning how to tie everything together. Your point about Van Djik not showing up well defensively is true on these things, until you look at the percentage of things he wins rather than overall amount, at which point he becomes the best penalty box defender, and aerial defender, in England.

[RandomGuy.]

2 minutes ago, The Marly said:

Stats are important in some sports, tennis, golf etc. Not sure they have the same relevance to football. I remember a Man United match back in Fergie's day when they needed a point away to Blackburn to win the league, a point would also have seen Blackburn just about safe from relegation. 1-1 with twenty minutes to go and Fergie brings on Scholes who was returning from injury. He was clearly told to just keep the ball, and Blackburn decided to retreat into their own half. Scholes made some ridiculous amount of passes but he was basically passing to United's defence and getting it back. His passing stats were brilliant for a cameo appearance but in reality meant f**k all.

This shows up though. He'd have low scores for forward passes, progressive passes, and key passes. So if you were looking at his performance it would be clear he played a safe, simple, game.

If I look up rankings for "passing", its not just a list of amount of passes and how many they completed, theres 7 sub-sections to expand on the type, plus a pass map that shows, plus clips of every single pass.

[The Marly]

This shows up though. He'd have low scores for forward passes, progressive passes, and key passes. So if you were looking at his performance it would be clear he played a safe, simple, game.
If I look up rankings for "passing", its not just a list of amount of passes and how many they completed, theres 7 sub-sections to expand on the type, plus a pass map that shows, plus clips of every single pass.

Fair do's. Just not for me I suppose.

[tree house tam]

8 hours ago, ali_91 said:

Alan Mannus scored a penalty and saved the decisive one in a 12-11 penalty shootout win for Shamrock tonight. What a boy. 

That's the difference a quality keeper makes.

[Radford]

I think Alan Mannus would have stayed with Saints if he knew he was going to be number one. He spoke about wanting to move nearer home but part of that was down to surely believing that the manager was moving towards Zander Clark. 

Looks a poor decision with Mannus still going strong three seasons later.

[perthsaint1977]

I think Alan Mannus would have stayed with Saints if he knew he was going to be number one. He spoke about wanting to move nearer home but part of that was down to surely believing that the manager was moving towards Zander Clark. 
Looks a poor decision with Mannus still going strong three seasons later.

He wanted to move home for daughter starting school etc. He had his heart on it and saints didn't stand in his way. Non story Radford. Alan the most honest and likable players I've encountered at saints. Great company

[Johnstoun]

20 hours ago, The Marly said:

21 hours ago, scottmcleanscontacts said:

Stats are shite. Garbage.

According to stats, Serge Aurier is one of the best right backs on the planet. We know this to be shite.

Stats are the reason AVB made a total arse of two very good jobs where he has two very good squads.

They are the reason Iain Cathro was a blatant failure at Hearts.

And so on.

They have their place, but their importance has to be questioned - an example is VVD at Liverpool. According to the data he barely makes a challenge. If you watch him you'll see why but on paper it would appear he can't defend.

Thank f**k the game is played on grass.

Stats are important in some sports, tennis, golf etc. Not sure they have the same relevance to football. I remember a Man United match back in Fergie's day when they needed a point away to Blackburn to win the league, a point would also have seen Blackburn just about safe from relegation. 1-1 with twenty minutes to go and Fergie brings on Scholes who was returning from injury. He was clearly told to just keep the ball, and Blackburn decided to retreat into their own half. Scholes made some ridiculous amount of passes but he was basically passing to United's defence and getting it back. His passing stats were brilliant for a cameo appearance but in reality meant f**k all.

I think my ideal game of football would be to watch Scholes and Riquelme pass the ball to one another all day long while achieving absolutely nothing. Utter football porn.

[The Saintee]

@RandomGuy.

The McDairmid mole reckons we're signing Morten Gamst Pederson.

[RandomGuy.]

24 minutes ago, The Saintee said:

@RandomGuy.

The McDairmid mole reckons we're signing Morten Gamst Pederson.

Genuinely loved him as a player when was at Blackburn, they had a great side with Tugay and that. Be about 10 years ago at least now though.

Surprised to find hes still been playing 20+ games in the Norwegian top flight over the past 3 years, and he seems to have transformed in a central midfield player.

FWIW I've spent the past two days creating "benchmark" figures, based on the figures from the top 10 ranked players over the past two seasons, to try and help identify players who are having good seasons. Its taken about 12 hours to do defenders and central midfielders. Tested it out and it seems to be working in terms of finding genuine talent (had Turnbull, Hagi and Aribo as the best young creative CMs this season/McCart as one of the best Championship CBs last season). I doubt anyone cares, but I feel like I need to tell someone or it'll feel like an even bigger waste of time than it clearly is.

FWIW, asked a Norwegian boy who writes blogs about football, and he reckons Pederson was miles out his depth in the Norwegian top flight last season, and was forced to drop into the 3rd tier to look capable again...

Edited August 28, 2020 by RandomGuy.

[Mr Positive, sometimes.]

43 minutes ago, The Saintee said:

@RandomGuy.

The McDairmid mole reckons we're signing Morten Gamst Pederson.

Surely not. 

38 year old. 

[RandomGuy.]

Just now, Mr Positive, sometimes. said:

Surely not. 

38 year old. 

TBF is the McDiarmid Mole ever wrong?