IRN-BRU Cup First Round Draw

[HibeeJibee]

Virtual Insanity:

Clubs have just played 4 games in between 12 to 15 days in the League Cup sections, and the league starts on Saturday. Many of them were drawn against 'B' teams in a cup where they are now expected to fulfil 2 rounds more than in previous seasons. Fan reaction to the 'B' teams has been generally negative. I do not see it as at all surprising that many crowds were poor, some rotten nor that some SPFL2 clubs put out weakened teams themselves. Clyde seem to be the most extreme case and it really is a starling reflection when the Clyde manager takes training with his first-team squad, while his own youth team plus 2 or 3 fringe-men play one of the two cups remaining to them this season. You can't feel otherwise.

Fans - and it would appear some managers and potentially their clubs - clearly feel it was 'condescending', 'farcical' or 'devalued' and therefore not worth the time and efforts in attending or in putting out a decent team to try and progress. Never mind your suggestion of going all-out to 'hump' them, it seems that instead many concluded - many as not every game fits one or both, tbf - was that it wasn't worth watching or winning.

On the youth development idea: half the 'B' teams went out last night, and people defending their inclusion are trying to minimise their significance by predicting that none of them bar perhaps the Old Firm 'B' teams will reach R3. If so where is the youth development? Is playing a 1 or 2 ties before the U20s season has even begun, half or all of them defeats, really going to meaningfully improve youth development? If that's the defence, it's a very weak one, IMO.

[7-2]

3 hours ago, PauloPerth said:

Beat me to it! The P&B Spreadsheet Mafia just can't stand any criticism of Hampden.

There will be cross border leagues. Rangers International and Celtic will join one. Their B teams will replace them in the Scottish league set up. It is just a matter of times. Anyone that cannot see this needs to get out of their bedroom more. Money is all that matters.

[shootingboots]

45 minutes ago, the_saints_are_coming said:

 

Who the f**k is Stevie May?

 

 

Actually a very relevant question these days. 

[PauloPerth]

1 hour ago, Illgresi said:

It's predictable that the folk with a negative view on this cup fall into two categories:

1. Fans of smaller/part-time/amateur clubs who find it insulting having to play a bigger club's youth team.

2. Fans of Premiership clubs whose U20s got horsed out by Highland league teams (Turriff for example).

 

For the first group I'd say man up. If you find it so insulting, just hammer whatever youth team you're drawn against. If, on the other hand, you find you have been beaten by a youth team, I think it's probably time to address your own clubs faults.

For the second group, try investing in your youth system instead of signing talentless journeymen thugs to try and kick any semblance of real football of the park (Paton for example).

 

Couldn't be prouder of the lambs last night. Superb to score so many against a strong highland league side.

I'm sorry but this is pish.  I have no emotion on our youth side getting knocked out, we shouldn't have been in the competition at all.  The only relevant factor is how many players progress to first team level and go on to do well.

Seeings as results at this level matter to you, we finished fourth in the Development League last season.  We also had 8 or 9(?) youth players out on loan at senior clubs from lower divisions.

 

[vikingTON]

5 minutes ago, 7-2 said:

Beat me to it! The P&B Spreadsheet Mafia just can't stand any criticism of Hampden.

There will be cross border leagues. Rangers International and Celtic will join one. Their B teams will replace them in the Scottish league set up. It is just a matter of times. Anyone that cannot see this needs to get out of their bedroom more. Money is all that matters.

If "money is all that matters" then Sevco would have been allowed to start off in the top flight of Scottish football, or start in the top tier of the SFL when that idea was kicked into touch (eventually) by the top flight clubs. They didn't though because things aren't actually as clear-cut as in your borderline paranoid mind. 

Cross-border leagues may well be coming down the chute but that still doesn't change the important fact: there is no overwhelming incentive for Old Firm B sides to be accepted into the league structure by the other 40 professional clubs in Scotland. Indeed, the paltry attendance figure for Celtic's match last night undermines that case even further. 

 

[PauloPerth]

1 minute ago, vikingTON said:

If "money is all that matters" then Sevco would have been allowed to start off in the top flight of Scottish football, or start in the top tier of the SFL when that idea was kicked into touch (eventually) by the top flight clubs. They didn't though because things aren't actually as clear-cut as in your borderline paranoid mind. 

Cross-border leagues may well be coming down the chute but that still doesn't change the important facts: there is no overwhelming incentive for Old Firm B sides to be accepted into the league structure by the other 40 professional clubs in Scotland. Indeed, the paltry figure for Celtic''s match last night undermines that case even further. 

 

Genuine question; you don't think this cup set up is a precursor to moves to get Old Firm B sides in the league?  You are 100% confident that there is no desire from those running the game to make it happen?

 

[7-2]

3 minutes ago, PauloPerth said:

I'm sorry but this is pish.  I have no emotion on our youth side getting knocked out, we shouldn't have been in the competition at all.  The only relevant factor is how many players progress to first team level and go on to do well.

Seeings as results at this level matter to you, we finished fourth in the Development League last season.  We also had 8 or 9(?) youth players out on loan at senior clubs from lower divisions.

Quite right. Apparently we started with five 16 year olds last night. Our Under-20's are effectively a 3rd team at best.

[vikingTON]

1 minute ago, PauloPerth said:

Genuine question; you don't think this cup set up is a precursor to moves to get Old Firm B sides in the league?  You are 100% confident that there is no desire from those running the game to make it happen?

 

Those "running the game" in terms of setting up the league system are the member clubs. There is no groundswell of support for B sides to be allowed in by the member clubs - and Celtic Under 20s attracting less than 300 to a match only undermines that case. The Old Firm Under 20s manager or a handful of clubs - probably five as craigkillie pointed out - can bump their gums about it all they want - they don't constitute a majority and can't even offer credible financial incentives from the puny gates their colt sides attract. 

 

[AyrExile]

8 minutes ago, vikingTON said:

If "money is all that matters" then Sevco would have been allowed to start off in the top flight of Scottish football, or start in the top tier of the SFL when that idea was kicked into touch (eventually) by the top flight clubs. They didn't though because things aren't actually as clear-cut as in your borderline paranoid mind. 

Cross-border leagues may well be coming down the chute but that still doesn't change the important fact: there is no overwhelming incentive for Old Firm B sides to be accepted into the league structure by the other 40 professional clubs in Scotland. Indeed, the paltry attendance figure for Celtic's match last night undermines that case even further. 

 

One midweek game during holiday time and before the season has even kicked off is enough to write the idea off? Would you not be better waiting until one of the international weekends when Eire are playing at some obscure time and there are no weekend league fixtures to see what the appetite is like amongst Celtic fans?

[vikingTON]

Just now, AyrExile said:

One midweek game during holiday time and before the season has even kicked off is enough to write the idea off? Would you not be better waiting until one of the international weekends when Eire are playing at some obscure time and there are no weekend league fixtures to see what the appetite is like amongst Celtic fans?

No - because the premise of having Old Firm B sides in the league setup is that they'd be playing exactly these sort of games, midweek as well as every Saturday, every single year. So that list of bullshit excuses would still apply. The fact that their first outing couldn't even break a 300 crowd demonstrates that there is no credible interest in watching their B side. The only thing to draw Old Firm fans to their youth games in any significant number is when they either play each other or have a sniff of league or cup success. There is very little to recommend that sort of entrant to the vast majority of league clubs. 

 

[AyrExile]

14 minutes ago, vikingTON said:

No - because the premise of having Old Firm B sides in the league setup is that they'd be playing exactly these sort of games, midweek as well as every Saturday, every single year. So that list of bullshit excuses would still apply. The fact that their first outing couldn't even break a 300 crowd demonstrates that there is no credible interest in watching their B side. The only thing to draw Old Firm fans to their youth games in any significant number is when they either play each other or have a sniff of league or cup success. There is very little to recommend that sort of entrant to the vast majority of league clubs. 

 

Those excuses are reasonable and an even bigger excuse which you fail to mention was the game also being live on tv. Speaking of TV a high percentage of games involving the old firm get moved meaning their fans have plenty free time on a Saturday afternoon. Throw in all ticket games and travelling time means many of their followers would happily attend some more locally based games. It's pretty apparent your myopic hatred of the old firm makes this a closed door for you. It's a pity as there are also benefits for the wider Scottish game in taking some of their cash back and allowing more young full time players to learn in a more competitive environment. I wonder how this concept seems to work in all these other European leagues but in Scotland it's guaranteed to fail?

[vikingTON]

12 minutes ago, AyrExile said:

Those excuses are reasonable and an even bigger excuse which you fail to mention was the game also being live on tv.

They're not reasonable at all. Why would any of the 30-odd clubs throw open the doors at the prospect of a team that can't get more than 300 fans? Every national level club in the country has a similar fixture list - their failure to attract a credible crowd speaks for itself. 

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Speaking of TV a high percentage of games involving the old firm get moved meaning their fans have plenty free time on a Saturday afternoon.

Celtic fans had as much free time last night: and about 200 of them showed up to watch their B team. Which is less than the vast majority of sides already in the league would attract, and underlines the point that their crowds would not in fact be a major financial draw.

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Throw in all ticket games and travelling time means many of their followers would happily attend some more locally based games.

There is no factual evidence for this claim. And we've just seen the response of 'locally based' Celtic fans to a B match - it was pathetic. Which means that other than continuing to earn token rent for hosting their matches, the Morton board for one won't be wetting their knickers at the apparent big draw of playing Celtic B. One vote gone:=, many more likely to follow them.

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It's pretty apparent your myopic hatred of the old firm makes this a closed door for you.

^^^ word salad 

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I wonder how this concept seems to work in all these other European leagues but in Scotland it's guaranteed to fail?

It's guaranteed to fail because the clubs in Scotland run the league setup, not the SFA. And given that there is no reason for the clubs to let B teams into the setup, it's not going to happen. 

Perfectly straightforward stuff. 

[Monkey Tennis]

5 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

 

If the mood of the clubs after a year or two is that it's pointless then it will stop, and to be honest the Challenge Cup itself probably will also, something I'd be very disappointed about.

I'd be extremely disappointed by that as well.  This tournament has provided some of my absolute favourite moments as a football fan.

Should it happen though, I'll recognise that the door to such an outcome had been opened by the current abomination of a tournament which you're supportive of.

[Skyline Drifter]

18 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I'd be extremely disappointed by that as well.  This tournament has provided some of my absolute favourite moments as a football fan.

Should it happen though, I'll recognise that the door to such an outcome had been opened by the current abomination of a tournament which you're supportive of.

Well no. The door to such an outcome was opened by the fact that the tournament has been unable to stand on its own feet for years and was heavily subsidised by the League in the old SFL days. The presence of Rangers in it has kept some sponsorship interest in it over the last four years, enough to keep it going, but the changes introduced this year were a bid to invigorate it. If they don't work, and people don't take to it, then, disappointed as I may be about it, it will go the same way as the Dryburgh Cup and various other tournaments before it.

I wouldn't say I'm enormously supportive of it. I've already posted several times I'm not particularly in favour of the Welsh and Irish aspect of it. I'm not throwing my toys out of the pram over it though. I will happily concede to being supportive of the Premiership 20's being in it though.

[Monkey Tennis]

2 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Well no. The door to such an outcome was opened by the fact that the tournament has been unable to stand on its own feet for years and was heavily subsidised by the League in the old SFL days. The presence of Rangers in it has kept some sponsorship interest in it over the last four years, enough to keep it going, but the changes introduced this year were a bid to invigorate it. If they don't work, and people don't take to it, then, disappointed as I may be about it, it will go the same way as the Dryburgh Cup and various other tournaments before it.

I wouldn't say I'm enormously supportive of it. I've already posted several times I'm not particularly in favour of the Welsh and Irish aspect of it. I'm not throwing my toys out of the pram over it though. I will happily concede to being supportive of the Premiership 20's being in it though.

Are you suggesting that had we not had the exceptional Rangers circumstances of recent years, the tournament would by now have died a death?

 

[Skyline Drifter]

3 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Are you suggesting that had we not had the exceptional Rangers circumstances of recent years, the tournament would by now have died a death?

Yes, this is what I'm suggesting. I have no evidence for it but I think it's likely. Or it would limp along with virtually no prize money and clubs potentially losing money playing games in it hoping for a future sponsor around the corner prepared to throw money at it. Given the number of clubs and fans who moan about it now I doubt they'd have tolerated that situation for long. The tournament was a significant drain on SFL funds before the merger. Bear in mind it did actually get abandoned for a year after we reached our first final as they couldn't find a sponsor.

[Monkey Tennis]

7 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Yes, this is what I'm suggesting. I have no evidence for it but I think it's likely. Or it would limp along with virtually no prize money and clubs potentially losing money playing games in it hoping for a future sponsor around the corner prepared to throw money at it. Given the number of clubs and fans who moan about it now I doubt they'd have tolerated that situation for long. The tournament was a significant drain on SFL funds before the merger. Bear in mind it did actually get abandoned for a year after we reached our first final as they couldn't find a sponsor.

Well if that's the case (and you've doubts about that, yourself) I'd have preferred a dignified fizzling out, to the nonsense that confronts us this year.

[bullyweehutch]

No one wants Colts in the cup but do the powers at the sfa give a f**k what the fans want? Do they f**k. Yet another genius game changing cup format from them

[7-2]

1 hour ago, AyrExile said:

 It's a pity as there are also benefits for the wider Scottish game in taking some of their cash back 

Sadly it's that principle that's resulted in the Scottish game becoming the shambles it is. Building it's whole structure around leeching from the bigot brothers certainly hasn't been good for the wider Scottish game. Quite the opposite in fact.

[craigkillie]

14 minutes ago, bullyweehutch said:

No one wants Colts in the cup but do the powers at the sfa give a f**k what the fans want? Do they f**k. Yet another genius game changing cup format from them

It has literally nothing to do with the SFA.