Favourite quirks of Scottish stadiums.

[PauloPerth]

On 04/07/2023 at 23:51, Monkey Tennis said:

McDiarmid's construction came before the Taylor Report though.  

The subsequent ruling was surely led by that new ground's existence, rather than the other way round.

Was there really any expectation of making all grounds all seated before Hillsborough?

Yes McDiarmid was already planned and being built when Hillsborough occurred, and I’m sure it was open when the Taylor Report was published. Lord Taylor visited McDiarmid as part of his research and I think it was mentioned in the report as a good example of the future.

McDiarmid was a great stadium when it was new as it was different from everything else. Unfortunately it became the template for most new stadia in Scotland, and they never really took the design further and we’re left with too many identikit uninspiring new stadia.

Another vote for old East End Park as the best away stadium in Scotland by a mile up until redevelopment. Brockville, Starks Park and Tannadice were also good. 

[parsforlife]

A lot of the old grounds were deeply flawed and that still lives on in those undeveloped (note that doesn’t mean made all seater). I can’t remember the change as an adult but I get the impression the move to all seater was viewed as part of a package, generally at the time seated areas had overall better facilities.  I think it was just too easy to say make everywhere seated rather than look at what needed improved in standing areas.

[tamthebam]

Funny you say the old grounds were deeply flawed.

I can sit in an old stand and not get rained on which is not something you can say about a lot of the newer grounds.

[Theyellowbox]

9 hours ago, tamthebam said:

Funny you say the old grounds were deeply flawed.

I can sit in an old stand and not get rained on which is not something you can say about a lot of the newer grounds.

Most of the old stands had been properly though through when being built and had been developed through experience. A lot of the newer ones were thrown up really quickly and not massively over though.

A good example of this is that a lot of old stadiums aimed to have (roads etc permitting) main stands facing east or north, or at least with the weather behind them. That way the stand gave a bit of shelter from the elements and from the sun glare.

Because we have 'stands' on all 4 sides now, the weather will innevitably go into one or more worse than others.

 

[Swello]

A lot of old grounds were deeply flawed, mainly for folk that weren't Main Stand punters. Can anyone seriously argue that Tynecastle at the end of the 80's for example was even on the same planet as the one in place now? It was a dilapidated shitehole where away supporters had to stand in the rain while pish overflowed down the stairs from the toilets.

Where I took issue (and still do) with Taylor was that it was a sweeping act that had very little context to it - and the governing bodies at the time made it worse. Was there any significant safety issue at old East End, Old Love Street or Old Rugby Park that required them to be totally remodelled? No. Many of the changes could/should have been applied only to very large stadiums like Hampden and Celtic Park, or to stadiums that had specific safety issues (dodgy stairwells, etc)

What Taylor did do was to drag those clubs who were seemingly happy to have punters housed in Victorian conditions to modernise and it's hard to argue that what's in place today isn't better for a lot of people (I'd assume that if a proper poll was done, there would be very little appetite for a return to widespread terracing (as opposed to specific Safe Standing areas for singing sections).

[topcat(The most tip top)]

33 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

Most of the old stands had been properly though through when being built and had been developed through experience. A lot of the newer ones were thrown up really quickly and not massively over though.

A good example of this is that a lot of old stadiums aimed to have (roads etc permitting) main stands facing east or north, or at least with the weather behind them. That way the stand gave a bit of shelter from the elements and from the sun glare.

Because we have 'stands' on all 4 sides now, the weather will innevitably go into one or more worse than others.

 

Most Main Stands face East so that the sun is behind them in the Afternoon

Tynecastle is an exception which means that it's actually better to be at the back of the Wheatfield stand at this time of year if the weather's nice

Another Exception is Chester FC who have their main stand on the east side because if it was on the west side their address would be in Wales 

 

[The Holiday Song]

On 05/07/2023 at 00:33, HibeeJibee said:

Pedantic point but contrary to popular myth this wasn't SPL.

Scottish Office + SFA + SFL agreed in 1994 that top division clubs would be all-seated with 10k+ capacity by 1998; later delayed to 1999.

Starting with McDiarmid numerous stadiums were built or rebuilt specifically designed to (just) meet expectation of 10,000 all-seater criteria from late 1980s through 1990s e.g. Excelsior, Almondvale, New Douglas Park, Stark's Park, Broadwood.

Clydebank declared their capacity as 9,950 to avoid stricter Sports Ground Act requirements which applied to 10k+ capacities.

Well there you go. That's about twenty years of me ranting and being annoyed about the SPL rules when it wasn't their fault! Will say though that that ruling really meant that Falkirk were never going to seriously upgrade Brockville because it was never going to get to 10k seats. But this discussion was also happening twenty years ago on P&B, lets not go over again!

[VincentGuerin]

19 minutes ago, Swello said:

A lot of old grounds were deeply flawed, mainly for folk that weren't Main Stand punters. Can anyone seriously argue that Tynecastle at the end of the 80's for example was even on the same planet as the one in place now? It was a dilapidated shitehole where away supporters had to stand in the rain while pish overflowed down the stairs from the toilets.

 

And quite right too. Bring it back, imo.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

On 04/07/2023 at 23:33, HibeeJibee said:

Pedantic point but contrary to popular myth this wasn't SPL.

Scottish Office + SFA + SFL agreed in 1994 that top division clubs would be all-seated with 10k+ capacity by 1998; later delayed to 1999.

Starting with McDiarmid numerous stadiums were built or rebuilt specifically designed to (just) meet expectation of 10,000 all-seater criteria from late 1980s through 1990s e.g. Excelsior, Almondvale, New Douglas Park, Stark's Park, Broadwood.
 

AS the "SPL" wasn't actually founded till 1998 it's got a pretty solid alibi for the events of 1994 

 

[Arch Stanton]

18 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

Most Main Stands face East so that the sun is behind them in the Afternoon

Tynecastle is an exception which means that it's actually better to be at the back of the Wheatfield stand at this time of year if the weather's nice

Another Exception is Chester FC who have their main stand on the east side because if it was on the west side their address would be in Wales 

St. Mirren Park also an exception with the Main Stand on the east side as that's where the road is located.

[Theyellowbox]

48 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

Most Main Stands face East so that the sun is behind them in the Afternoon

Tynecastle is an exception which means that it's actually better to be at the back of the Wheatfield stand at this time of year if the weather's nice

Another Exception is Chester FC who have their main stand on the east side because if it was on the west side their address would be in Wales 

 

Exactly. Thought was put into them when being built. Thought that was too often absent in the early 90's rush.

Interestingly, McDiarmid, for all it's faults, nailed pretty much all the things needed from an all seater stadium, without a template to follow. You can see the evolution from this to newer builds, such as more enclosed sides, no walkway along the middle of stands etc, that other teams learnt.

I think there is some rose tinted view of the pre taylor stadiums. Some were absolute dumps, that 'looked' ok, but weren't really. That said, a lot could have been done at a fraction of the price the bring them up to standard without having to rip down perfectly good terracing. Maybe a consequence of complete lack of maintenance and investment in the old stadiums, that is unfortunately being replicated again. C30 years on from the post Taylor rush, many stands are in a real state. 

 

[PB1994]

2 hours ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

Most Main Stands face East so that the sun is behind them in the Afternoon

Tynecastle is an exception which means that it's actually better to be at the back of the Wheatfield stand at this time of year if the weather's nice

Another Exception is Chester FC who have their main stand on the east side because if it was on the west side their address would be in Wales 

 

You can add the Caledonian Stadium to that list. There is a gas pipe running underground on the other side which meant a proper stand couldn't, and still can't be built.

[Swello]

3 hours ago, Theyellowbox said:

Interestingly, McDiarmid, for all it's faults, nailed pretty much all the things needed from an all seater stadium, without a template to follow

I always assumed that McDiarmid followed the Ibrox template (before the corners were filled in obviously).

[Monkey Tennis]

12 minutes ago, Swello said:

I always assumed that McDiarmid followed the Ibrox template (before the corners were filled in obviously).

Is that just because of the stripes of coloured seats?

[topcat(The most tip top)]

7 minutes ago, Swello said:

I always assumed that McDiarmid followed the Ibrox template (before the corners were filled in obviously).

The symmetry and big blocks of different coloured seating made those comparisons easier than they should have been

But it was about a quarter of the size so it was answering very different questions

 

[Swello]

I assumed they went to the architect with a picture of Ibrox and said "a small one of them please, only colder and in a cow field".

[Molotov]

14 hours ago, tamthebam said:

Funny you say the old grounds were deeply flawed.

I can sit in an old stand and not get rained on which is not something you can say about a lot of the newer grounds.

Did you ever stand underneath the old north stand at Hampden?

”it’s raining pish!”

[topcat(The most tip top)]

29 minutes ago, Swello said:

I assumed they went to the architect with a picture of Ibrox and said "a small one of them please, only colder and in a cow field".

Quite possibly that's exactly they did but when faced with that request an architect wouldn't have been able to just photocopy the plans and make them smaller.  Apart from anything else the roofs didn't need to be anywhere near as big so aren't hung from a cross bar truss near the front

 

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by topcat(The most tip top)

[Theyellowbox]

54 minutes ago, Swello said:

I assumed they went to the architect with a picture of Ibrox and said "a small one of them please, only colder and in a cow field".

I'm sure in some way they will have considered bits of Ibrox as it was the only proper built seated stands at the time. Aberdeen and Clydebank had all seated too, but that was largely benches on terracing.

McDiarmid was a completely new design. Bits worked, but others didn't. At the time, there were stadium designers from all over the world visiting to see what bits to replicate. I remember a bit on sportscene about a load of Japanese architects visiting.

Brechin (deffinately) and Northampton town and/or possibly Wycombe, (seem to remember) lifted designs.

BTW, it was a strawberry field. prior to the build, there was a stream that ran under where the pitch is now, which is (in part) an issue with the pitch drainage, although must be minimal. 

Total build was £1 cost to Saints. Not a deal Asda ever replicated with anyone to my knowledge and in proper Saints fashion, whatever could be repurposed from Muirton was. Floodlights and goalposts being the most obvious.

For anyone wanting a nostalgia trip, there is some old seats from the Muirton main stand inside the reception at McDiarmid. Other bits are stored in the archives, which is currently being curated. 

[Salvo Montalbano]

Always liked McDiarmid, especially when we took a big support and got the wing of the Main Stand as well as the end behind the goals. Going into the stand from street level but being in a raised position (as you do in the end stands at East End) is good and should allow for good disabled access although I think it's the case that disabled away fans don't get that anymore? The only bad bits of design at that time I thought were having the food kiosks and toilets at the end down stairwells, and that the corners were a bit too open meaning the atmosphere could escape. And the car park obviously, not that we ever used it.

It still stands up as a decent venue though and better than some of the other out of town all seaters.