Old Firm Colts in L2

[St-ow!]

Surprised the old firm aren't looking at putting their colts in with the English Premier's equivalent, where they think they belong. Don't know what the standard is like there, but it seems more like the sort of glamour they aspire to.

[edinabear]

4 hours ago, peternapper said:

Have always said if this came to pass i would be finished with league football & would go junior or highland league. Can not see the justification for any club being allowed more than one entry in what is essentially the same competition.

You could then watch Aberdeen and Ict colts in the Highland league

[Jimmy Shaker]

33 minutes ago, edinabear said:

You could then watch Aberdeen and Ict colts in the Highland league

ICT Colts put a team in the SHFL for the 2019/20 season. It wasn't a success. 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Jimmy Shaker

[peternapper]

39 minutes ago, edinabear said:

You could then watch Aberdeen and Ict colts in the Highland league

Why would they be in the Highland league, it would be far better if clubs that have too many players on their books played each other in a reserve league that used to be a good breeding ground that attracted some decent crowds and meant they were facing usually young full time pros rather than interfering with proper club football. As we have seen in the challenge cup. Cannot really see what the big attraction is for Premier league teams  sending out sides against mainly part time players that should resent them being there .

 

[theboke]

Intuitively against the colt firm but gave it some thought this morning. Possible benefits depending upon how it's done 

1. League expansion to 44 teams could push everyone up a couple of notches in a 14, 10, 10, 10 setup. I'd demand this as a tradeoff for their inclusion.

B. Colt teams would likely be relegated immediately from L2 because they'd be pants inconsistent so they would stop current L2 sides being relegated and would therefore expedite promotion of real teams in their place. So demand that they could be relegated to the LL and beyond as a tradeoff for their inclusion.

[TheScarf]

Another issue with Colts, a apart from the main, obvious ones, is they could only go so far up the pyramid.  I think Spain and Germany is level 3, Holland is level 2.

What would happen if by some miracle the colts finished 1st and 2nd in League 1 but couldn't be promoted so you'd have the 3rd places team, who finished 20 points behind the league winners getting promoted.  

It's fucking moronic.  Colt teams should not be in any country's league system.

[Sergeant Wilson]

14 minutes ago, theboke said:

Intuitively against the colt firm but gave it some thought this morning. Possible benefits depending upon how it's done 

1. League expansion to 44 teams could push everyone up a couple of notches in a 14, 10, 10, 10 setup. I'd demand this as a tradeoff for their inclusion.

B. Colt teams would likely be relegated immediately from L2 because they'd be pants inconsistent so they would stop current L2 sides being relegated and would therefore expedite promotion of real teams in their place. So demand that they could be relegated to the LL and beyond as a tradeoff for their inclusion.

No, that's you conceded it's possible and you're willing to consider it and negotiate.

[Marten]

56 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

Another issue with Colts, a apart from the main, obvious ones, is they could only go so far up the pyramid.  I think Spain and Germany is level 3, Holland is level 2.

What would happen if by some miracle the colts finished 1st and 2nd in League 1 but couldn't be promoted so you'd have the 3rd places team, who finished 20 points behind the league winners getting promoted.  

It's fucking moronic.  Colt teams should not be in any country's league system.

Such a farce happened in The Netherlands recently, Ajax Colts won the league, meaning promotion and play-off spots were all pushed down. On top of that, PSV colts finished in a play-off spot, so a team that really finished 2 spots below the playoffs still got in.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, TheScarf said:

Another issue with Colts, a apart from the main, obvious ones, is they could only go so far up the pyramid.  I think Spain and Germany is level 3, Holland is level 2.

What would happen if by some miracle the colts finished 1st and 2nd in League 1 but couldn't be promoted so you'd have the 3rd places team, who finished 20 points behind the league winners getting promoted.  

It's fucking moronic.  Colt teams should not be in any country's league system.

The OF coaches that keep pushing this idea have a wet dream of replicating the 1983-84 Segunda Division in Spain.

[TheScarf]

1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The OF coaches that keep pushing this idea have a wet dream of replicating the 1983-84 Segunda Division in Spain.

Farcical.

[afca32]

Even if they couldn't go as high as the Championship clubs in that league would still be affected. I'd almost guarantee both teams would sign up experienced players from lower divisions, as happens with Bayern and Barca etc. to improve their reserve teams. They'll end up playing a league or two below what they're capable of but earn a good bit more money than they would at Queen of the South, Alloa or Morton.

They'll also hang onto players for an extra couple of years after they'd normally be released, again to help out the reserve side. Rather than Regan Hendry for example going onto become a great player at Raith, it's easy to see him hanging around playing for Celtic reserves until he's 23 if they were admitted to League 2.

Championship (and indeed League 1) clubs will suffer as the suitable player pool will likely be a good bit smaller when you also consider how many loanees they get from both clubs.

[TheScarf]

25 minutes ago, afca32 said:

Even if they couldn't go as high as the Championship clubs in that league would still be affected. I'd almost guarantee both teams would sign up experienced players from lower divisions, as happens with Bayern and Barca etc. to improve their reserve teams. They'll end up playing a league or two below what they're capable of but earn a good bit more money than they would at Queen of the South, Alloa or Morton.

They'll also hang onto players for an extra couple of years after they'd normally be released, again to help out the reserve side. Rather than Regan Hendry for example going onto become a great player at Raith, it's easy to see him hanging around playing for Celtic reserves until he's 23 if they were admitted to League 2.

Championship (and indeed League 1) clubs will suffer as the suitable player pool will likely be a good bit smaller when you also consider how many loanees they get from both clubs.

Surely, if it did ever come to fruition, there would be an age limit to playing for the colts.  Make it under 21, otherwise the scenario you pointed out would almost certainly happen.

25 year olds getting signed from QOS/Raith etc to play for Rangers reserves.

[afca32]

13 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

Surely, if it did ever come to fruition, there would be an age limit to playing for the colts.  Make it under 21, otherwise the scenario you pointed out would almost certainly happen.

25 year olds getting signed from QOS/Raith etc to play for Rangers reserves.

Possibly but in the long term  I don't see them being satisfied with that. When reserves were added to the Challenge Cup it was u20s only, then the next year they were allowed two overage players, then it was u21s with two overage players. They just want their foot in the door, then as time passes they can start campaigning for new rules to suit themselves. 

[The Moonster]

10 minutes ago, afca32 said:

Possibly but in the long term  I don't see them being satisfied with that. When reserves were added to the Challenge Cup it was u20s only, then the next year they were allowed two overage players, then it was u21s with two overage players. They just want their foot in the door, then as time passes they can start campaigning for new rules to suit themselves. 

Spot on. Which is why from this day forward we shouldn't even be entertaining this notion with discussion, even that is too much a foot in the door for me. Shut down the debate by telling whoever mentions it to f**k off there and then. Job done. 

[St-ow!]

3 hours ago, theboke said:

Intuitively against the colt firm but gave it some thought this morning. Possible benefits depending upon how it's done 

1. League expansion to 44 teams could push everyone up a couple of notches in a 14, 10, 10, 10 setup. I'd demand this as a tradeoff for their inclusion.

B. Colt teams would likely be relegated immediately from L2 because they'd be pants inconsistent so they would stop current L2 sides being relegated and would therefore expedite promotion of real teams in their place. So demand that they could be relegated to the LL and beyond as a tradeoff for their inclusion.

I can see the logic - keep saying no, see how much it means to them by what they offer, and maybe yes if it's something very beneficial to all clubs.

It's still not for me, though. I don't understand why they have such a hard-on for League 2 when surely their ambitions are elsewhere. Off to the EPL's U23s with you. Goodbye.

[Hampden Diehard]

5 hours ago, afca32 said:

Championship (or League 1) clubs will suffer as the suitable player pool will likely be a good bit smaller when you also consider how many loanees they get from both clubs.

Or, alternatively, these decent young players wouldn't get hoovered up by the big clubs in the first place and would be signed by the Falkirks (and Queen's Parks).  Clubs have to contribute to the salary of the loan players they receive; they're generally not free gifts.

As an aside, the loan system should be reviewed. It's not as bad up here, but the likes of Chelsea have had more players out on loan in recent years than they have in their first team pool.

[Jacksgranda]

Why was the old Reserve League scrapped? And when?

The problem with the Reserve League was it couldn't accomodate the reserve sides of the relegated clubs as there was no second division reserve league (I think any second division sides with a reserve side played in the Combined Reserve League e.g Queen' Park along with the likes of Glasgow University.) 

On the odd occasion when a "big" team fell through the trapdoor e.g St Mirren, Motherwell, Partick Thistle, Falkirk even, what did they do - scrap their reserves or play in the aforementioned CRL?

I used to quite enjoy reserve games, although the crowds weren't great. I suppose maybe with Aberdeen being so far from anywhere else in the league - Dundee & Perth being 70 miles away - reserve games held an attraction for Dons' fans.

ETA: Don't forget the old C Division had Reserve teams in it. The problem of relegation/promotion was easily solved, if a reserve team won the division nobody changed division.

Edited March 1, 2021 by Jacksgranda

[afca32]

10 minutes ago, Hampden Diehard said:

Or, alternatively, these decent young players wouldn't get hoovered up by the big clubs in the first place and would be signed by the Falkirks (and Queen's Parks).  Clubs have to contribute to the salary of the loan players they receive; they're generally not free gifts.

As an aside, the loan system should be reviewed. It's not as bad up here, but the likes of Chelsea have had more players out on loan in recent years than they have in their first team pool.

To be honest I think they'd sweep up even more young players but it's hard to say unless it happens. As you mentioned with the loan system, big clubs are hoarding players to a ridiculous extent these days.

[BFTD]

Next time someone gives it, "why are you meanies all so biased against poor Rangers and Celtic?", it ought to be enough to point out that they used a global pandemic to try and strongarm struggling wee clubs into accepting a few bawbees for turning their leagues into a glorified training exercise for their reserves.

[DiegoDiego]

Farcical.

I think they were still in Tercera Division back then.