Old Firm Colts in L2

[Salvo Montalbano]

they wouldn't be in the Scottish Cup and they wouldn't receive any SPFL positional monies.  I presume they would not be involved in League Cup but would be in Challenge Cup if that format remains as at present - to my mind Colts teams shouldn't be getting any prize money in Challenge Cup but they have to date as far as I recall of top of my head.  One factor that might need to be considered is any TV deals/rights involving Old Firm colts - and how that impacts on money and logistics for clubs - when Cowden played Celtic Colts that match was televised (Premier Sports? can't remember).   Maybe even a possible TV deal underpins the Old Firm payments for 250 fans per match - I don't know

Premier Sports did indeed show a couple of Celtic Colt games in last season's Challenge Cup. I don't think they did this season though, despite having the rights to do so. Being a small TV company that is usually pretty desperate to show any live football, you have to wonder why. Probably the audience was so small they lost money setting up OB Vans, cameras, commentators, summarisers, presenters etc? I suppose BT might cover a game to test the water but since that goes to the general pot I can't see that helping the League Two sides involved (and of course they might well just show the two youth teams playing each other).

[Dunning1874]

With reference to my previous point about the ridiculous argumentsand the architects of the plan clearly not believing them, I'm enjoying the sheer brazenness of some of it. I love the statistic about 37% of players in Scotland teams at U19 level and below not making it to the under-21s, and the fact that those players who fall away 'tend to come from Rangers and Celtic and are replaced with lesser potential Scottish talent who are playing 1st team football at a smaller club where they may access the 1st team earlier'

Let's unpack that quote. You'll note the lack of statistics used to support the claim that most of these players come from the OF, despite the extremely specific claim about the numbers not progressing. However, if we accept this claim despite the lack of evidence, what does that say? Supposedly the players taking their places have 'lesser potential' [citation needed and I'd love to see them establish it] but are taking places ahead of OF players because they're getting first team football already.

There's a few facets to that. How many players in the under 21s who are getting first team football are doing so in League Two? If the answer is none, how will putting the Celtic and Rangers players into League Two make any difference?

If the OF players are indeed more capable than those playing first team football elsewhere but fail to deliver on their potential due to lack of first team football, why are Rangers and Celtic denying them first team football? Maybe the solution to that problem is to force them to select a certain number of young Scots in their squad? Maybe just loan them out to Championship or even other Premiership clubs where they can get first team football at a higher level than League Two? Or maybe Celtic and Rangers could stop hoarding youngsters who have no chance of progressing to their first teams in the first place if the only thing holding them back is a lack of first team football?

Jamie Lindsay of Celtic played for Scotland up to under-19 level but failed to progress to the under 21s despite that and is now 22. He has had two Championship loan spells and now a Premiership one. Would he be a better player and knocking on the door of the national team now if he'd been playing for nothing in a League Two team for the last two and a half seasons rather than spending them at a far higher level, working under different managers, learning alongside more experienced players and experiencing real competitive football with two of his loan spells putting him in a relegation battle and the other in a promotion challenge? No, he obviously wouldn't. On the flip side, he's obviously never going to make it at Celtic anyway, so why do they still have him on their books?

How is the only solution to improve Jamie Lindsay and every other Old Firm youth product throwing a team into League Two rather than guaranteeing him first team football at a higher level, whether that's through giving him some first team time at Celtic, sending him on loan or just letting him leave entirely? It's almost as if what's best for the development of the player has absolutely f**k all to do with this proposal.

Alternatively, maybe Old Firm players not realising their potential isn't the issue at all, and in fact those playing at U19 level fail to progress to U21s because they're not actually the best players at that level? Maybe they've got the whole thing the wrong way round and the fact so many more Rangers & Celtic players are in the U19s than U21s isn't evidence that Rangers & Celtic players are failing to realise their potential and we need to do something to help them realise it, but is evidence that we're picking players with less potential at U19 level because they play for Rangers or Celtic and are ignoring more talented players at smaller clubs, as our scouting of players at that age just isn't good enough? A crazy suggestion I know, but if the boot fits.

On the drop off in results from U19 and below to U21 for the national team; maybe this has nothing to do with the players moving from those levels getting first team football? Maybe there's an inherent issue with coaching players in that age group in this country? Maybe under 19 level and below throws up more anomalies in results as it's level where the majority of players have never experienced first team football? I honestly have no idea, but I certainly don't think making a change for changes sake at an entirely unrelated level of the game is the answer.

I'm merely speculating at points throughout this post, but I've got as much evidence for it as anyone advocating B teams in League Two has for their back of a fag packet proposals. Fire every single one of them into the sun.

[Ivo den Bieman]

TV money for OF U-20s rocking up at an SPFL2 ground

would probably be cheaper for the broadcaster to get all six in the audience a BnB and vouchers for dinner and a few pints for the evening,

 

 

 

[Clyde01]

I would like to see more relegation from Scottish league. Some clubs really do tread water like Clyde, ambitious Junior teams or BSC Glasgow would be better served in the Scottish League

Clyde is your go to example of treading water? The same Clyde that were tier 2 regulars for most of the 00’s decade, knocked Celtic out of the Scottish cup, developed international players like Gordon greer and Craig Bryson.

We have been shite of late but I hardly think treading water is an accurate description of our ambitions.

[Ivo den Bieman]

27 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

Alternatively, maybe Old Firm players not realising their potential isn't the issue at all, and in fact those playing at U19 level fail to progress to U21s because they're not actually the best players at that level? Maybe they've got the whole thing the wrong way round and the fact so many more Rangers & Celtic players are in the U19s than U21s isn't evidence that Rangers & Celtic players are failing to realise their potential and we need to do something to help them realise it, but is evidence that we're picking players with less potential at U19 level because they play for Rangers or Celtic and are ignoring more talented players at smaller clubs, as our scouting of players at that age just isn't good enough? A crazy suggestion I know, but if the boot fits.

On the drop off in results from U19 and below to U21 for the national team; maybe this has nothing to do with the players moving from those levels getting first team football? Maybe there's an inherent issue with coaching players in that age group in this country? Maybe under 19 level and below throws up more anomalies in results as it's level where the majority of players have never experienced first team football? I honestly have no idea, but I certainly don't think making a change for changes sake at an entirely unrelated level of the game is the answer.

 

very good post and this stood out particularly.

Let's remember these age group teams are nowhere near being the best in their development league as things stand, which suggests maybe that the staff they have in those roles aren't very good, or, if that's too outrageous, then the structure they have to operate in is not fit for purpose. Quite why SPFL2 is the answer to a failing system of youth development is anyone's guess. But then you realise that questions of improving youth development and the national team is just a smokescreen for the real agenda, which is the Old Firm dictating to the football authorities how the game should be run for their benefit.

Brazen is the word for it.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Ivo den Bieman

[Clyde01]

It's the clubs who vote for and keep scum like Regan and Doncaster in a job.
We've shown before with the Sevco nonsense, and are showing again now with this 'colts' pish, that we have a voice and that it will be listened to.
If, as hoped, this 'colts' bullshit gets punted, we need to start lobbying our clubs to demand that Regan, Doncaster and the other incompetent sycophants are removed from power.

Agree 100% - getting this proposal in the fucking sea is only the start.

The fact that it has been allowed to get so far really shows how out of touch and incompetent the clowns running our game are. Not to mention the national team manager fiasco currently unfolding.

Regan and Doncaster’s heads should roll for this insult.

[Blootoon87]

Anybody else think that playing under 20's in a pressure free, consequence free environment maybe isn't the best way to develop them? They can't get promoted or relegated so they'd essentially be playing friendlies all season.

 

 

[peternapper]

12 minutes ago, Blootoon87 said:

Anybody else think that playing under 20's in a pressure free, consequence free environment maybe isn't the best way to develop them? They can't get promoted or relegated so they'd essentially be playing friendlies l season.

At the same time depending on whether they had a good day or not could affect every other team in the league, it just makes a mockery of a proper league system.

Edited January 25, 2018 by peternapper

[HTG]

I haven't got the time to keep pacewith this thread. If the interests of producing decent players for Scotland is the key to this, why not stick them in the Championship where there are full time teams for them to cut their teeth on. Let Dunfermline, Morton and the rest deal with this pile of shite. The whole thing would be kicked into touch in 5 minutes flat. Get it in the sea. 

[Radford]

Rangers Colts certainly put down a marker this afternoon about how they need to test themselves at League Two level; dumped out of the Youth Cup (the only competitive domestic U20 football they play) by St Johnstone.

[cmontheloknow]

17 minutes ago, Radford said:

Rangers Colts certainly put down a marker this afternoon about how they need to test themselves at League Two level; dumped out of the Youth Cup (the only competitive domestic U20 football they play) by St Johnstone.

It's called 'making a statement.' They're good at that.

[scot-gcar709]

Why in God’s name does anyone think there would be tv money for this? No one is going to want to watch an u20s team playing a league 2 team esp when the game is effectively meaningless. Heck most people would watch two decent league 2 teams playing for title. Old firms fans are only interested in their first teams and lording it over the rest of Scottish football.

[PELE]

Has Manky quit yet?

[She who dares gins]

Airdrie joins the remain on the fence but listen to fans brigade. Bit too gutless for my liking. I’ve made my views clear and had a shite response mirroring this.

 

https://www.airdriefc.com/coltteams-250118

 

[Loonytoons]

Aye, and another aspect which gets me in the proposal: a two year pilot? How were the SFA/SPFL going to assess if their daft idea, or the Old Firm's daft idea, had helped the national team in two years time?

 

Wait a second, then they'll propose a ten year pilot.

The two year trial does sort of make sense though. The teams will predominantly be made up of U19's and U20's 's.

Those guys will be too old to play after two years.

If the thinking is just the trial period then see what comes of the guys that played in the next 3-4 years before deciding the next move, it does make sense.

However, that's not what's happening here and we all know it.

 

[cement]

I am going to make the term "get it in the sea" a legitimate work response to the next idea my cockwomble boss comes up with.

[Loonytoons]

I am going to make the term "get it in the sea" a legitimate work response to the next idea my cockwomble boss comes up with.

I believe it's "the fucking sea".

[Richey Edwards]

Put the Old Firm colts in the Junior Leagues out the road.

[Loonytoons]

Put the Old Firm in the Junior Leagues out the road.

FTFY

[SouthLanarkshireWhite]

2 hours ago, Blootoon87 said:

Anybody else think that playing under 20's in a pressure free, consequence free environment maybe isn't the best way to develop them? They can't get promoted or relegated so they'd essentially be playing friendlies all season.

 

 

The pro youth system works like that, so at least it is consistent.