Catalonia

[git-intae-thum]

1 minute ago, Highlandmagyar 2nd String said:

Wouldn't be any legitimacy to it. The fact that the non shite bag folk are in the minority.

Maybe back in 2014

[Colkitto]

33 minutes ago, Loondave1 said:

This is deluded stuff.Maybe the Scottish Resistance could just declare a vote then all vote YES and declare UDI.What about the Catalans that ignored the vote on the basis of it's illegality ? How would they react to a declaration of UDI without being consulted any further ? Its painful to see the desperation to cut n paste Catalonia as an example of the way ahead in Scotland despite it being nothing like here.Lets face it if they had a legal referendum and voted to stay put you would be saying they were "nawbags" and "shat the bed".Maybe not you personally but certainly a fair few on here.

Not sure what you're on about to be honest. If say Catalonia is accepted a separate country  from Spain via UDI, then the same criteria could apply to Scotland and others. 

If a vote was passed in the Scottish parliament (like it was in the Catalonian parliament) to hold a referendum and the Yes side won (like in Catalonia)   and we declared UDI, then the same criteria would apply.

We would by-pass Westminster (like Catalonia by-passed Madrid) and hold a referendum.  But it's all hypothetical at the moment  until Catalonia declares UDI. Then we can gauge how things will go - Catalonia would be like a test case. 

[Dunning1874]

1 hour ago, Colkitto said:

Early EU response seems to be that this is an internal matter. Predictable, albeit very poor initial response from the EU.

As internal matters within states are obviously no concern of the EU, can we assume they'll be promptly lifting the sanctions placed on Belarus, Burundi, the Central African Republic, China, DR Congo, Egypt, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Iran, Libya, Myanmar, South Sudan, Tunisia, Venezuela and Zimbabwe as a result of the handling of internal matters by each of those states? 

[Jmothecat2]

Not sure what you're on about to be honest. If say Catalonia is accepted a separate country  from Spain via UDI, then the same criteria could apply to Scotland and others. 
If a vote was passed in the Scottish parliament (like it was in the Catalonian parliament) to hold a referendum and the Yes side won (like in Catalonia)   and we declared UDI, then the same criteria would apply.
We would by-pass Westminster (like Catalonia by-passed Madrid) and hold a referendum.  But it's all hypothetical at the moment  until Catalonia declares UDI. Then we can gauge how things will go - Catalonia would be like a test case. 

Surely it would be different as if it was a referendum sanctioned by the UK government it wouldn't have to be a UDI. If the referendum was declared illegal before hand unionists would likely boycott it and the referendum wouldn't be reflective so any UDI based on it would be unjustified as the unofficial referendum wouldn't be accepted as genuinely reflective of the will of Scottish people. It makes a lot more sense to do it legally and win a referendum similar to the last one we had, then if yes wins we become independent.

[Colkitto]

2 minutes ago, Jmothecat2 said:

 

Surely it would be different as if it was a referendum sanctioned by the UK government it wouldn't have to be a UDI. If the referendum was declared illegal before hand unionists would likely boycott it and the referendum wouldn't be reflective so any UDI based on it would be unjustified as the unofficial referendum wouldn't be accepted as genuinely reflective of the will of Scottish people. It makes a lot more sense to do it legally and win a referendum similar to the last one we had, then if yes wins we become independent.

 

As I mentioned in my original post, the best route would be to have a legally binding referendum.

I'm just giving an opinion in a hypothetical situation that could arise if Catalonia is successful in becoming an independent country in it's own right via the UDI declaration.

It sets a precedent for others if they did become an independent  country and accepted into the UN and the EU

 

 

[bob the tank]

If the maybot refuses indyref2 then all that needs to be done is tear up the treaty of union, as it is clearly not a union but Scotland has been colonized by England and Wales.

[invergowrie arab]

Even if the the EU members ( stop thinking of the EU as a single entity) wanted to admit Catalonia the current capacity of the EU does not allow it to recognise the secession of a part of a member state without recognition of that state.

Indeed the EU have a duty under their own articles to protect the territorial integrity of Spain.

[bob the tank]

Even if the the EU members ( stop thinking of the EU as a single entity) wanted to admit Catalonia the current capacity of the EU does not allow it to recognise the secession of a part of a member state without recognition of that state.
Indeed the EU have a duty under their own articles to protect the territorial integrity of Spain.

But what if spain is suspended for the atrocities yesterday? Using paramilitary force against the populace is against EU rules

[John Lambies Doos]

Can't see Catalonia declaring UDI. More than likely Spain will offer them a legally binding referendum. The Yes vote is now more likely to win this as a result of the disgusting scenes witnessed yesterday.

[invergowrie arab]

29 minutes ago, bob the tank said:

 

But what if spain is suspended for the atrocities yesterday? Using paramilitary force against the populace is against EU rules

 

That wouldn't change any of the above.

If you are interested in seeing article 7, or the precursors to Article 7, in action see the case of Poland from earlier this year.

Edited October 2, 2017 by invergowrie arab

[invergowrie arab]

10 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

Can't see Catalonia declaring UDI. More than likely Spain will offer them a legally binding referendum. The Yes vote is now more likely to win this as a result of the disgusting scenes witnessed yesterday.

The Spanish govt can not offer a legally binding referendum that goes beyond the current rules for varying the Spanish constitution or it would be struck down by the courts.

I don't think the legal route to secession will be acceptable to Catalan secessionists.

[git-intae-thum]

1 hour ago, invergowrie arab said:

The Spanish govt can not offer a legally binding referendum that goes beyond the current rules for varying the Spanish constitution or it would be struck down by the courts.

I don't think the legal route to secession will be acceptable to Catalan secessionists.

and therein lies the problem. The Spanish govt are enforcing a written constitution which in essence denies the right to self determination.

[Alan Stubbs]

I can see as many, if not more negatives for Scotland here than positives. The EU closing ranks around Spain doesn't help us and we can expect a tsunami of 'we need less borders in the world duuuude' coverage, which doesn't actually account for the merits of each case.

The folk that seem to be waiting for that one event to happen that will deliver Independence need to chill out, it's not happening soon. The next few years are going to be a lesson in the Yes movement keeping its head down and letting the middle ground make up their own minds. The way things are heading for Britain is likely to be a screaming neon advertisement for Scottish Independence but as we've already seen with Brexit, the SNP being seen to jump on events can backfire.

As mentioned above, winning the next Holyrood election is essential, which the SNP are more than capable of doing as long as they stick on their more recent path. Davidson is a total shambles when the SNP are keeping quiet about indy and Labour are showing no sign of becoming less of a banter party. 

 

[MONKMAN]

Scottish Government saying what Westminster should be saying.

[invergowrie arab]

17 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

and therein lies the problem. The Spanish govt are enforcing a written constitution which in essence denies the right to self determination.

Even if the govt weren't the courts would.

In a world where Madrid decided to recognise Catalonia de facto for the timebeing I guess they could put together a package of reforms to the constitution that would find enough favour throughout Spain that would be worth the price of letting Catalonia go but I have no idea what that would be and we are nowhere near that.

Which is why, and I think it will be not at all easy, there needs to be an EU solution as to how they deal with secessionist movements within the EU and a criteria for cause, process, recognition etc

[Big Fifer]

The comparisons between indy ref and this fall down at one key stage for me; I don't think there's anywhere near the support for an independent Scotland as there is in Catalonia for their independence. 

[invergowrie arab]

3 minutes ago, Big Fifer said:

The comparisons between indy ref and this fall down at one key stage for me; I don't think there's anywhere near the support for an independent Scotland as there is in Catalonia for their independence. 

Do you not think so?

You know there are polls out there so you don't have to take your best guess.

[Big Fifer]

Just now, invergowrie arab said:

Do you not think so?

You know there are polls out there so you don't have to take your best guess.

Yeah but the Catalonian polls don't seem to be the most accurate and verifiable, and this one certainly isn't all too accurate as the vast majority of No voters won't have voted.

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, Big Fifer said:

The comparisons between indy ref and this fall down at one key stage for me; I don't think there's anywhere near the support for an independent Scotland as there is in Catalonia for their independence. 

I think before Sunday's debacle it was roughly the same or less in Catalonia. You're probably right now. It would be a huge mistake for the SNP to link our case with Catalonia though, totally different histories. Catalonia has never been an independent state for one, only a subservient principality. And you have the bits in France that may want to join. And the potential domino effect on other regions of Spain. I think a Federal arrangement is what they should be thinking about, EU membership wouldn't be an issue then.

[Big Fifer]

4 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I think before Sunday's debacle it was roughly the same or less in Catalonia. You're probably right now. It would be a huge mistake for the SNP to link our case with Catalonia though, totally different histories. Catalonia has never been an independent state for one, only a subservient principality. And you have the bits in France that may want to join. And the potential domino effect on other regions of Spain. I think a Federal arrangement is what they should be thinking about, EU membership wouldn't be an issue then.

I find the links between the SNP/Catalonia a bit weird also; I'll admit I'm a bit ignorant but is Catalonia not  a very wealthy area? It's not going to turn into some socialist utopia in the same way most folk think an indy Scotland will.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Big Fifer