The official Boris pm cluster-fuck thread

[GordonD]

12 minutes ago, Gringo said:

we've squandered most of the advantages of Brexit.

Are there any?

[orfc]

37 minutes ago, Gringo said:

Thatcher reduced the basic rate of tax from 33% to 25% over a period. The marginal top rate of tax when she came in could be as high as 98% for some people and this was reduced to 40%.

They did however increase VAT, albeit modestly.
The country prospered.

I remember in some band autobiography (I think one of the stones, or someone talking about one of them) a story about a band member owing around £100k in taxes in the days of 90% tax rates... they went out and toured and earned and they guy dutifully handed over most of his earnings to the taxman...

"ah, but no" said the taxman, "that 100k is your earnings, so we're due 90k of that anyways, and the other 10k pays off a bit of your arrears". It then dawned on the guy he was going to have to earn a million pounds to pay off his 100k tax arrears, and all of it would go to the taxman... the band moved abroad shortly afterwards

[BFTD]

Dawson Park Gringo getting bites by pretending to believe Labour are a socialist party  

[Bob in Denny]

Pre Blair Labour drinkers

apre Blair Labour sippers

 

you get my drift?

[lichtgilphead]

44 minutes ago, Gringo said:

Thatcher reduced the basic rate of tax from 33% to 25% over a period. The marginal top rate of tax when she came in could be as high as 98% for some people and this was reduced to 40%.

They did however increase VAT, albeit modestly.
The country prospered.

The 98% rate was not income tax. It was a 15% additional tax on investment income on top of the 83% income tax rate, which only applied to income over £20,000 at that time (£221,741 today). It was hardly going to affect the vast majority of taxpayers.

The "modest" increase in VAT nearly doubled this regressive tax. Thatcher increased VAT from 8% to 15% in 1979 whilst reducing the standard rate of income tax from 33% to 30%. Even you must admit that a 7% rise is more than a 3% cut

Anyway, you appear to have completely ignored the point I made about Thatcher selling off the family silver & pissing away the oil revenues. Do you just intend to ignore my comparison with Norway?

[Gringo]

31 minutes ago, orfc said:

I remember in some band autobiography (I think one of the stones, or someone talking about one of them) a story about a band member owing around £100k in taxes in the days of 90% tax rates... they went out and toured and earned and they guy dutifully handed over most of his earnings to the taxman...

"ah, but no" said the taxman, "that 100k is your earnings, so we're due 90k of that anyways, and the other 10k pays off a bit of your arrears". It then dawned on the guy he was going to have to earn a million pounds to pay off his 100k tax arrears, and all of it would go to the taxman... the band moved abroad shortly afterwards

Might have been Keith Richards autobiography?

Its a great read.

[Gringo]

22 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

The 98% rate was not income tax. It was a 15% additional tax on investment income on top of the 83% income tax rate, which only applied to income over £20,000 at that time (£221,741 today). It was hardly going to affect the vast majority of taxpayers.

The "modest" increase in VAT nearly doubled this regressive tax. Thatcher increased VAT from 8% to 15% in 1979 whilst reducing the standard rate of income tax from 33% to 30%. Even you must admit that a 7% rise is more than a 3% cut

Anyway, you appear to have completely ignored the point I made about Thatcher selling off the family silver & pissing away the oil revenues. Do you just intend to ignore my comparison with Norway?

I did say ‘top rate of tax’. You’re just being pedantic.
The 15% was investment income surcharge, a really nasty bit of legislation.

I still think she got the basic rate down to 25 but I’m certainly not researching it.

Moving from direct to indirect taxation is a great motivation to work and enables you to protect lower earners by zero rating things like basic foods, children’s clothing, etc.

Norway chose the path of high taxes and high benefits. That was their choice. We were in such a mess after Labour and the Unions that some drastic action was required. The 80’s and early 90’s was a great period for strivers.

 

 

 

[lichtgilphead]

8 minutes ago, Gringo said:

I did say ‘top rate of tax’. You’re just being pedantic.
The 15% was investment income surcharge, a really nasty bit of legislation.

I still think she got the basic rate down to 25 but I’m certainly not researching it.

Moving from direct to indirect taxation is a great motivation to work and enables you to protect lower earners by zero rating things like basic foods, children’s clothing, etc.

Norway chose the path of high taxes and high benefits. That was their choice. We were in such a mess after Labour and the Unions that some drastic action was required. The 80’s and early 90’s was a great period for strivers.

Still avoiding addressing the "selling off the family silver & pissing away the oil revenues" question, I see.

It's hardly pedantic to point out that the 98% rate didn't apply in the vast majority of cases, only to investment income 'earned' by someone who was already on today's equivalent of over £220,000 for income tax purposes. I doubt that many (if any) on P'n'B would have paid it, either back in 1979 or if the same tax rates were in force today.

However, the near doubling of VAT was imposed practically immediately after Thatcher came to power, as was the initial 3% cut in basic rate income tax. The cut to 25% happened a number of years later (late 1980's?), nearly 10 years after she first came to power

I note that you mention the zero rate of VAT on basic foods & childrens clothing, yet (strangely), you don't mention the VAT on 'luxuries' such as domestic fuel & power and the further VAT increase to 17.5% in the early 90's (albeit after they had dumped Thatcher), but before the current rightward lurch.

You clearly have your rose tinted glasses on when you reflect on the late 1980's/early 1990's. Perhaps it was slightly better than the Tory shitshow today, but that's hardly a great endorsement.

 

[btb]

2 hours ago, Gringo said:

Thatcher reduced the basic rate of tax from 33% to 25% over a period. The marginal top rate of tax when she came in could be as high as 98% for some people and this was reduced to 40%.

They did however increase VAT, albeit modestly. Almost doubled!
The country prospered.  Parts of it did!

From the Thatcher Myths

Quote

The economy boomed

Only for a while. In the late 1980s GDP growth was topping 5 per cent. But the Thatcher era was book-ended by two recessions, from 1980 to 1981 and from 1990 to 1991.

Annual GDP growth averages out at about 2.3 per cent over the whole of Baroness Thatcher’s time in office compared to 2.5 per cent under Tony Blair.

 

Quote

She cut taxes

No. She did lower taxes for the rich – lowering the top rate from 83 per cent to 60 then 40 per cent. But that was offset by a rise in VAT from 8 to 15 per cent.

Total tax and national insurance receipts as a percentage of GDP were actually slightly higher in 1989/90 than in 1979/80: 35 per cent rather than 33.7.

 

 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

1 hour ago, Gringo said:

I did say ‘top rate of tax’. You’re just being pedantic.
The 15% was investment income surcharge, a really nasty bit of legislation.

I still think she got the basic rate down to 25 but I’m certainly not researching it.

Moving from direct to indirect taxation is a great motivation to work and enables you to protect lower earners by zero rating things like basic foods, children’s clothing, etc.

Norway chose the path of high taxes and high benefits. That was their choice. We were in such a mess after Labour and the Unions that some drastic action was required. The 80’s and early 90’s was a great period for strivers.

 

 

 

'Strivers'.  What exactly do YOU do as a matter of interest ?

[Gringo]

1 hour ago, lichtgilphead said:

Still avoiding addressing the "selling off the family silver & pissing away the oil revenues" question, I see.

It's hardly pedantic to point out that the 98% rate didn't apply in the vast majority of cases, only to investment income 'earned' by someone who was already on today's equivalent of over £220,000 for income tax purposes. I doubt that many (if any) on P'n'B would have paid it, either back in 1979 or if the same tax rates were in force today.

However, the near doubling of VAT was imposed practically immediately after Thatcher came to power, as was the initial 3% cut in basic rate income tax. The cut to 25% happened a number of years later (late 1980's?), nearly 10 years after she first came to power

I note that you mention the zero rate of VAT on basic foods & childrens clothing, yet (strangely), you don't mention the VAT on 'luxuries' such as domestic fuel & power and the further VAT increase to 17.5% in the early 90's (albeit after they had dumped Thatcher), but before the current rightward lurch.

You clearly have your rose tinted glasses on when you reflect on the late 1980's/early 1990's. Perhaps it was slightly better than the Tory shitshow today, but that's hardly a great endorsement.

 

You obviously spend your time on Google.

Good for you.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Does DPB actually believe the shite he posts?

[lichtgilphead]

5 minutes ago, Gringo said:

You obviously spend your time on Google.

Good for you.

Ohh, what a savage put-down! I suppose it allows you to dodge the questions I asked though.

I left school, completed Uni & started gainful employment during the Thatcher period, and remember that her income tax cuts were more than balanced by her increases in regressive taxation (we haven't even started on her introduction of the Poll Tax yet)

Your attempts to portray the UK as some sort of utopia under Thatcher are nonsensical, and certainly don't reflect my experience.

 

[BFTD]

1 minute ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Does DPB actually believe the shite he posts?

No.

I'm particularly enjoying the implication that lichtgilphead has too much time on their hands to sit and Google information, instead of spending his weekends being repeatedly banned from a football forum for posting the same attention-seeking bigotry over and over again  

[lichtgilphead]

3 minutes ago, BTFD said:

No.

I'm particularly enjoying the implication that lichtgilphead has too much time on their hands to sit and Google information, instead of spending his weekends being repeatedly banned from a football forum for posting the same attention-seeking bigotry over and over again  

To be fair on DPB, I did look at 2 pages on Wikipedia to confirm my belief that he was talking shite.

Knowing where to look for information to back up your knowledge of history is an approach I would encourage him to adopt in future.

[Gringo]

8 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

Ohh, what a savage put-down! I suppose it allows you to dodge the questions I asked though.

I left school, completed Uni & started gainful employment during the Thatcher period, and remember that her income tax cuts were more than balanced by her increases in regressive taxation (we haven't even started on her introduction of the Poll Tax yet)

Your attempts to portray the UK as some sort of utopia under Thatcher are nonsensical, and certainly don't reflect my experience.

 

It certainly was compared to what went before.

Do you recall the disastrous Prices and Incomes policy under George Brown?

Socialism in action- total fail.

Do you remember all the strikes - miners, steelworkers, car workers, you name it. How about all the power cuts, candles to light the house. That was certainly no utopia. Thatcher came just at the right time, in fact the nick of time.

For me the 80’s and 90’s were a period of great prosperity. Markets were free, incentives were huge and Britain was a great place to live in.

Can only speak for myself. Maybe your experiences were different. Who knows?

 

[Highlandmagar]

For a history of economic mismanagement in UK plc I would thoroughly recommend The Nine Crises by William Keegan.

[Highlandmagar]

3 hours ago, Gringo said:

We were in the EU long before Thatcher came to power.

Only 6 years previously. In politics that's nothing.

[Gringo]

2 minutes ago, Highlandmagar said:

Only 6 years previously. In politics that's nothing.

Also, in those days it was a much looser Union that it became in the later years.

Bear that in mind.

[BFTD]

15 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

To be fair on DPB, I did look at 2 pages on Wikipedia to confirm my belief that he was talking shite.

Knowing where to look for information to back up your knowledge of history is an approach I would encourage him to adopt in future.

Keep them bookmarked - you'll be having the same conversation with him under his next account too.