Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[101]

3 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

Why does everyone think that both the Scottish and U.K. governments aren’t closing schools?

Because there are over half a million households with dependant children and they are a key voting demographic.

 

As I've said before it's not going to school that's necessarily the problem it's going everywhere else, families of people attending education should be in strict lockdowns (for everything apart from attending school) whilst everyone else gets back to some kind of normality.

[Bairnardo]

3 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

Why does everyone think that both the Scottish and U.K. governments aren’t closing schools?

Because it would make not one iota of difference. Blended learning.... Classes spilt in two would he bridged by the children of key workers, and this would create a two tier education for hundreds of thousands of children. There is no second go at furlough, so children will mix half the week then be watched by various combinations of households including grandparents. 

Those parents who WFH will reasonably be expected to be working, not educating their kids, a job for which they are unqualified. Hence, they two tier education.

The real reason though, is that despite all the screeching on here, there is absolutely nothing that points to kids being as effective at catching or transmitting the virus as adults are. I mean, if you think they are, then what would be a reasonable R number for the school population? At the outset of this, R was 3.5 and this roaring infectiousness is the problem we face. That's for society as a whole. Would it be reasonable to say that primary schools and nurseries should therefore have R numbers of more than that? I would say so. Do the numbers bear that out? Do they f**k. 

In summary, only a fucking idiot can think school children transmit this as well as adults, and the fact that they can be opened with lesser transmission combined with the societal damage caused by closing them is why they are open. 

[Marshmallo]

14 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

Why does everyone think that both the Scottish and U.K. governments aren’t closing schools?

Parents don't want the weans in the house and parents have the vote

5 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

Because it would make not one iota of difference. Blended learning.... Classes spilt in two would he bridged by the children of key workers, and this would create a two tier education for hundreds of thousands of children. There is no second go at furlough, so children will mix half the week then be watched by various combinations of households including grandparents. 

Those parents who WFH will reasonably be expected to be working, not educating their kids, a job for which they are unqualified. Hence, they two tier education.

The real reason though, is that despite all the screeching on here, there is absolutely nothing that points to kids being as effective at catching or transmitting the virus as adults are. I mean, if you think they are, then what would be a reasonable R number for the school population? At the outset of this, R was 3.5 and this roaring infectiousness is the problem we face. That's for society as a whole. Would it be reasonable to say that primary schools and nurseries should therefore have R numbers of more than that? I would say so. Do the numbers bear that out? Do they f**k. 

In summary, only a fucking idiot can think school children transmit this as well as adults, and the fact that they can be opened with lesser transmission combined with the societal damage caused by closing them is why they are open. 

^^^ Epidemiologist 

[Gaz]

13 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

Why does everyone think that both the Scottish and U.K. governments aren’t closing schools?

A - Education is vitally important for children, especially those in poverty, and until there is a massive logistical change in how education operates (not just in Scotland, but worldwide) it remains, at this point, the most efficient way of delivery.

B - Governments need people back to work, for many parents that needs childcare.

What proportion is devoted to A and what proportion is devoted to B is up for debate.

[Sergeant Wilson]

2 minutes ago, Gaz said:

A - Education is vitally important for children, especially those in poverty, and until there is a massive logistical change in how education operates (not just in Scotland, but worldwide) it remains, at this point, the most efficient way of delivery.

B - Governments need people back to work, for many parents that needs childcare.

What proportion is devoted to A and what proportion is devoted to B is up for debate.

You might've stumbled on a means odd population control. In the future there will be no schools. Children will be at home learning on line. Parents can look after them. I'll be able to take the car out about 3 o'clock without every fucking road being reduced to one lane within half a mile of a school. Half the office won't disappear at the drop of a hat for child related activity etc etc.

Are there any downsides?

[Melanius Mullarkey]

5 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

You might've stumbled on a means odd population control. In the future there will be no schools. Children will be at home learning on line. Parents can look after them. I'll be able to take the car out about 3 o'clock without every fucking road being reduced to one lane within half a mile of a school. Half the office won't disappear at the drop of a hat for child related activity etc etc.

Are there any downsides?

Yes.

Children still being a thing.

[Gaz]

15 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

You might've stumbled on a means odd population control. In the future there will be no schools. Children will be at home learning on line. Parents can look after them. I'll be able to take the car out about 3 o'clock without every fucking road being reduced to one lane within half a mile of a school. Half the office won't disappear at the drop of a hat for child related activity etc etc.

Are there any downsides?

I genuinely think that in 20-30 years time schools won't be anything like what they are just now.

The increases in modern technology means that it's possible to learn absolutely anything you want, for free, at a time and place of your own choosing. The logistical advantages school has - childcare, staff to motivate / encourage the learners, preparation for exams etc. - will be solved by someone a lot cleverer than me, and we'll see a rapid change in education.

[Bairnardo]

3 minutes ago, Gaz said:

I genuinely think that in 20-30 years time schools won't be anything like what they are just now.

The increases in modern technology means that it's possible to learn absolutely anything you want, for free, at a time and place of your own choosing. The logistical advantages school has - childcare, staff to motivate / encourage the learners, preparation for exams etc. - will be solved by someone a lot cleverer than me, and we'll see a rapid change in education.

The start of this might come as of now at Uni/College level. A level where participants are there by choice.

[ICTChris]

The doctor behind the Covid symptom tracker app says the second wave is levelling off.

[stumigoo]

I genuinely think that in 20-30 years time schools won't be anything like what they are just now.
The increases in modern technology means that it's possible to learn absolutely anything you want, for free, at a time and place of your own choosing. The logistical advantages school has - childcare, staff to motivate / encourage the learners, preparation for exams etc. - will be solved by someone a lot cleverer than me, and we'll see a rapid change in education.

A model like that relies on a complete shift in mindset and the support of families/carers.

There are currently huge, huge numbers of young people in Scotland who lack the family and social network to allow them to learn at home and that is before we also need to then address the motivational and aspirational support they need that they simply do not get at home.

Lockdown and the need for home learning further highlighted the huge gaps, socially and economically.

For some elements of education and for those that have the support and desire then maybe distance learning becomes a thing, but certainly not for a large percentage of our kids.

[Gaz]

Just now, stumigoo said:

A model like that relies on a complete shift in mindset and the support of families/carers.

There are currently huge, huge numbers of young people in Scotland who lack the family and social network to allow them to learn at home and that is before we also need to then address the motivational and aspirational support they need that they simply do not get at home.

Lockdown and the need for home learning further highlighted the huge gaps, socially and economically.

For some elements of education and for those that have the support and desire then maybe distance learning becomes a thing, but certainly not for a large percentage of our kids.

 

I absolutely agree, which is why I said in the next 20-30 years when someone smarter than me solves those problems. It's certainly not something that could be done right now.

Ironically, in my experience the type of pupil who would benefit most from an education are often the type of pupil for whom school is blatantly not the best place for them to learn.

[Michael W]

I don't think anyone is suggesting the schools be closed entirely. 

That said, school closures are but one means of mitigating covid. Schools in Greater Manchester (for example) should IMO be shut given the prevalence of the virus there presently. This makes sense as they're struggling to bring the virus under control. 

[Mark Connolly]

15 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

The doctor behind the Covid symptom tracker app says the second wave is levelling off.
 

Salford eh? That should give the Tories a prime opportunity to close the BBC.

[Szamo's_Ammo]

1 hour ago, Marshmallo said:

^^^ Epidemiologist 

Laughing out loud that it's moved onto kids not being as "effective at catching or transmitting as adults". There's no one even debating whether children transmit the virus as much as adults. That's absolutely brilliant that they do not seemingly.

Despite this, 39% of the cases of Covid-19 recorded in our neighbouring country occurred in education last week, with the vast majority in schools. I guess ONS data just isn't enough evidence.

God knows how high the cases would be if they were as "effective" as adults at transmitting the virus.

If you're prepared for the virus to spiral out of control further, putting you, your children's and the wider public's health at risk so your kids can be in an enclosed building with hundreds of other people for 30+ hours per week, at least admit it rather than resorting to embarrassing mental gymnastics. It's a perfectly understandable position to take.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Szamo's_Ammo

[Bairnardo]

Laughing out loud that it's moved onto kids not being as "effective at catching or transmitting as adults". There's no one even debating whether children transmit the virus as much as adults. That's absolutely brilliant that they do not seemingly.

Despite this, 39% of the cases of Covid-19 recorded in our neighbouring country occurred in education last week, with the vast majority in schools. I guess ONS data just isn't enough evidence.

God knows how high the cases would be if they were as "effective" as adults at transmitting the virus.

If you're prepared for the virus to spiral out of control further, putting you, your children's and the wider public's health at risk so your kids can be in an enclosed building with hundreds of other people for 30+ hours per week, at least admit it rather than resorting to embarrassing mental gymnastics. It's a perfectly understandable position to take.

So what is it that you want then? Schools to close for zero covid? Are you determined that covid is not going to become an endemic disease that we simply have to manage?

 

Theres simply no way that schools arent first to open and last to close, for societal reasons.

 

So take that as your start point and explain what it is that you want to see happen and what it will achieve?

 

 

ETA maybe try to do more than repeatedly copy and paste the same pie chart without anything else to back it up over and over again

[Szamo's_Ammo]

Just now, Bairnardo said:

So what is it that you want then? Schools to close for zero covid? Are you determined that covid is not going to become an endemic disease that we simply have to manage?

Theres simply no way that schools arent first to open and last to close, for societal reasons.

So take that as your start point and explain what it is that you want to see happen and what it will achieve?

If blended learning had been brought in as planned- as thousands of teachers had prepared for- the virus would not be as out of control as it is now. That should have been the starting point in August and reviewing things at the October holidays.

The virus is out of control again and the horse has bolted so I fear schools will have to be closed completely again for a time, which is much worse for children (and working parents) than at least getting some kind of classroom learning each week.

Teachers I know have been in meetings in the last couple of weeks in regards to the possibility of blended learning coming back onto the table so the inconvenient truth that schools may close isn't being ignored by staff themselves.

As far as I'm aware, the Scottish government wants to eliminate coronavirus from the country. I think that is unlikely but that is their position (unless it has changed in the last few weeks, they haven't told us). The way cases have sky rocketed since the schools reopened suggests this is not going to be possible with an almost unrestricted reopening of primary and secondary education.

I want the government to be honest. Are we still looking to eliminate the virus? Are we going to have to accept that virtually every other sector (hospitality, entertainment, sports, etc) is going to have to be restricted forever, or until there is a vaccine, to keep schools open as normal? It would be nice to know. I'm pretty sure the public could handle it.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

The 3 clowns white-knighting each other is funny but also completely tragic.

[vikingTON]

What evidence is there that all these disadvantaged students - of which there are many - actually benefit from being at school for 30 hours per week as opposed to 15? Why would a 9-3 at school model plus homework and study to be done in this disruptive home environment anyway prove an inherently better option for students with difficult backgrounds than a more flexible approach? In what way is studying in the same room as up to 30 fellow students - some of which don't want to be there and disrupt the class constantly as a result - the most effective learning environment for any never mind the majority of students in that room?

This discussion is based on the entirely false premise that the state education system prior to March was in any way designed to provide either the best outcomes for the majority of students or to prevent inequality. It wasn't. It was simply what had always been done since compulsory state education was introduced in the Victorian period, adjusted very gradually over time because of the massive institutional hostility towards change. 

Edited October 4, 2020 by vikingTON

[Szamo's_Ammo]

Italy reporting their highest daily Covid cases in 5 months. They really seemed to have it under control as well.

I'm sure I read there was a reopening of a sector there on 14 September but can't remember what it was.

Edit- it was the libraries I think. That seems to ring a bell!

Edited October 4, 2020 by Szamo's_Ammo

[Bairnardo]

6 minutes ago, Szamo's_Ammo said:

If blended learning had been brought in as planned- as thousands of teachers had prepared for- the virus would not be as out of control as it is now. That should have been the starting point in August and reviewing things at the October holidays.

The virus is out of control again and the horse has bolted so I fear schools will have to be closed completely again for a time, which is much worse for children (and working parents) than at least getting some kind of classroom learning each week.

Teachers I know have been in meetings in the last couple of weeks in regards to the possibility of blended learning coming back onto the table so the inconvenient truth that schools may close isn't being ignored by staff themselves.

As far as I'm aware, the Scottish government wants to eliminate coronavirus from the country. I think that is unlikely but that is their position (unless it has changed in the last few weeks, they haven't told us). The way cases have sky rocketed since the schools reopened suggests this is not going to be possible with an almost unrestricted reopening of primary and secondary education.

I want the government to be honest. Are we still looking to eliminate the virus? Are we going to have to accept that virtually every other sector (hospitality, entertainment, sports, etc) is going to have to be restricted forever, or until there is a vaccine, to keep schools open as normal? It would be nice to know. I'm pretty sure the public could handle it.

Blended learning cant be effective in providing education for a huge number of children, who would have parents who are WFH and too busy to teach them, working elsewhere without key worker status and so kids are farmed out half the week to grandparents, or have parents who simply CBA. In all three of the above scenarios the kids suffer. In one of them, a very glaring infection route to the most vulnerable in society is opened up. 

Now the key workers point which I have already mentioned. There are thousands upon thousands of "key workers" in Scotland. All of their children would have to be accommodated by state provision, otherwise.... Aye it's the grandparents again. So as I mentioned before, theres a 2 tier education system right there. That's going to totally unacceptable isnt it? So key workers kids provide the bridge between two different sets of kids. 

 

It's a ridiculous model, and has been binned precisely because we are not going for the unachievable zero covid, we are weight up the cost in cases against the value of the service for all sectors and schools have quite rightly taken their place at the top of the tree. Only a functioning NHS is more important and as such, schools closing or moving to blended will happen alongside a full scale lockdown to prevent a North Italy scenario. 

 

All of this is absolutely right and appropriate. The education of kids is significantly more important than people getting to socialise in eachothers houses, or go to football, or just about anything else that's currently off limits.