Conspiracy Theories

[HarleyQuinn]

David Grusch (the recent whistleblower who testified in congress) is soon to release an op ed with his first hand knowledge regarding the subject of UFOs/Aliens/The Phenomena. In the meantime, Ross Coulthart interview Dr Gary Nolan to discuss what the Phenomena is. Is it real? or is it all a distraction from something else?

 

[ICTChris]

Wasn’t sure where to put this but lots of stories about increases in measles cases and low vaccination rates in various parts of the UK.

Saw this thread by a Times journalist - you can see in this second chart the inflection point for middle class vaccine hesitancy. In 2010 it was the most affluent who were most likely to be hesitant towards the MMR vaccine, Now it’s reversed.

Wakefield must be one of the real villains of modern Britain. A large measles outbreak in this country would be horrible.

[tamthebam]

13 hours ago, ICTChris said:

Wasn’t sure where to put this but lots of stories about increases in measles cases and low vaccination rates in various parts of the UK.

Saw this thread by a Times journalist - you can see in this second chart the inflection point for middle class vaccine hesitancy. In 2010 it was the most affluent who were most likely to be hesitant towards the MMR vaccine, Now it’s reversed.

Wakefield must be one of the real villains of modern Britain. A large measles outbreak in this country would be horrible.

The picture on the top left of the headline- Did the Post Office kill Diana? 

[highlandmac]

7 hours ago, tamthebam said:

The picture on the top left of the headline- Did the Post Office kill Diana? 

That'd be more the daily heils style

[welshbairn]

On 22/01/2024 at 10:07, ICTChris said:

Wasn’t sure where to put this but lots of stories about increases in measles cases and low vaccination rates in various parts of the UK.

Saw this thread by a Times journalist - you can see in this second chart the inflection point for middle class vaccine hesitancy. In 2010 it was the most affluent who were most likely to be hesitant towards the MMR vaccine, Now it’s reversed.

Wakefield must be one of the real villains of modern Britain. A large measles outbreak in this country would be horrible.

There was a piece on the radio this morning saying that the Birmingham outbreak is a lot to do with the MMR vaccine containing pork sourced gelatine, and they haven't been good at letting people know there's a halal version available. I doubt the shameless Wakefield grift holds much currency anymore outside the demented Twitterati.

[ICTChris]

Jon Ronson has a new podcast series about the conspiracy theories sprung forth by lockdown.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/m0011cpr

He focuses on what he says was the key period for conspiracism in lockdown - around six weeks into the full lockdown when the murder of George Floyd happened.  In the series he covers transgender rights in schools, vaccine hesitancy, police brutality, bogus medical diagnoses, the Great Reset etc.

It's an interesting series, Ronson makes entertaining content.  I think it's something of a stretch to link all this stuff back to very specific time periods but it makes a good link to everything.  Some of the stuff is really interesting but is only touched on.  The 'excited delirium' diagnosis used to justify taser use and chokeholds etc, I honestly think there is lots of medical evidence used in courts that is sketchy but people just think that a doctor said it so it's all good.  The episode about the militia plot to kidnap the governer of Michigan touches on the fact that numerous people involved in the militia were undercover agents or informants.  A lot of Yank far right organisations would probably collapse if all Federal agents and informants were withdrawn, same with UK ones.  How can you send people to prison in those cirucmstances?

Worth a listen anyway.

[ICTChris]

Thread about the guy who cornered Rishi Sunak on GB News

 

[beefybake]

On 22/01/2024 at 10:07, ICTChris said:

Wakefield must be one of the real villains of modern Britain. A large measles outbreak in this country would be horrible.

Think you may have been caught up in the  'public vilifications' .   I didn't at the time have any particular skin in the game but did note...

1. There didn't really seem to have been any proper independent testing of MMR.

2. Wakefield was going against the direct vested interests of the status quo..., ie the drugs industry, the government, and the likes of the BMA.

So he was always likely to be *ucked.

 

The result, and the situation now, is that the whole subject is rather like the scenario where no one hardly dares to question, or criticise, anything about Israel without being accused of anti-Semitism.  

Basically public discussion of MMR has been closed down. Rather little wonder, sometimes, that people seek refuge in conspiracy theories. 

 

https://youtu.be/bqcoMniqSQQ?si=fjjOiHufopMA3cQf

 

Edited February 14 by beefybake

[Freedom Farter]

4 hours ago, beefybake said:

Think you may have been caught up in the  'public vilifications' .   I didn't at the time have any particular skin in the game but did note...

1. There didn't really seem to have been any proper independent testing of MMR.

2. Wakefield was going against the direct vested interests of the status quo..., ie the drugs industry, the government, and the likes of the BMA.

So he was always likely to be *ucked.

 

The result, and the situation now, is that the whole subject is rather like the scenario where no one hardly dares to question, or criticise, anything about Israel without being accused of anti-Semitism.  

Basically public discussion of MMR has been closed down. Rather little wonder, sometimes, that people seek refuge in conspiracy theories. 

 

https://youtu.be/bqcoMniqSQQ?si=fjjOiHufopMA3cQf

 

The BMA are a trade union. While doctors collectively earn a much higher salary than other professions, they are still workers and in most cases, they work for the state not private companies. Therefore, I don't think the BMA had much in the way of vested interests here.

While its reasonable to look at who opposed Wakefield, we must also judge his character too. Not all purported whistle-blowers are the same. You've mentioned Israel there and I know we're both interested in geopolitics so I'll use an example along those lines. Nargas Mohammadi is an Iranian human rights activist, currently held in solitary confinement in Tehran for the crime of dissenting against her government. She won the Nobel peace prize last year and has spoken many times of her support for Palestinians as part of the wider international liberation struggle she identifies with. Then there's Masih Alinejad, also an Iranian and a claimed human rights activist. She now lives comfortably in USA where she spends much of her time tweeting support for Israel when she's not meeting with Mike Pompeo and other politicians of that ilk. These aren't the same type of whistle-blower. Generally, someone who is genuinely standing up to power suffers for their stance. Like Nargas Mohammadi locked up in prison. Not like Masih Alinejad.

Wakefield is Masih Alinejad. He didn't suffer for his stance at all. He gained the infamy he desired and the huge, ongoing income from that infamy. Like Alinejad, he instantly ran off to USA, the true target audience of his initial campaign.

An hour and three quarters long but I gave this a listen and its the most thorough telling of Wakefield's story I've come across:

 

The thing with this topic too is that it is Wakefield. It all came from him, the "link" between vaccines and autism was only ever made by him. There was no controversy. No debate. No movement. He just pulled this out his arse one day and I think that's where it belongs, back up Andrew Wakefield's arse. There isn't any more discussion to be had on it.

Edited February 14 by Freedom Farter

[beefybake]

1 hour ago, Freedom Farter said:

The BMA are a trade union. While doctors collectively earn a much higher salary than other professions, they are still workers and in most cases, they work for the state not private companies. Therefore, I don't think the BMA had much in the way of vested interests here.

While its reasonable to look at who opposed Wakefield, we must also judge his character too. Not all purported whistle-blowers are the same. You've mentioned Israel there and I know we're both interested in geopolitics so I'll use an example along those lines. Nargas Mohammadi is an Iranian human rights activist, currently held in solitary confinement in Tehran for the crime of dissenting against her government. She won the Nobel peace prize last year and has spoken many times of her support for Palestinians as part of the wider international liberation struggle she identifies with. Then there's Masih Alinejad, also an Iranian and a claimed human rights activist. She now lives comfortably in USA where she spends much of her time tweeting support for Israel when she's not meeting with Mike Pompeo and other politicians of that ilk. These aren't the same type of whistle-blower. Generally, someone who is genuinely standing up to power suffers for their stance. Like Nargas Mohammadi locked up in prison. Not like Masih Alinejad.

Wakefield is Masih Alinejad. He didn't suffer for his stance at all. He gained the infamy he desired and the huge, ongoing income from that infamy. Like Alinejad, he instantly ran off to USA, the true target audience of his initial campaign.

An hour and three quarters long but I gave this a listen and its the most thorough telling of Wakefield's story I've come across:

 

The thing with this topic too is that it is Wakefield. It all came from him, the "link" between vaccines and autism was only ever made by him. There was no controversy. No debate. No movement. He just pulled this out his arse one day and I think that's where it belongs, back up Andrew Wakefield's arse. There isn't any more discussion to be had on it.

In your opinion.

As I said, I had no particular skin in the game at the time. Nor particularly now. 

My own view then and now, is that the the root question about whether a concoction of vaccines all mixed into one is proveably OK...is a valid question.  Oh, and by the way, yes I'm well aware of what the BMA is.  Doctors dish out what the state, and pharmaceutical companies assure them is OK..... , as was thalidomide, powerful hydocortisone creams that ruined skin,  all the ****zepams etc.., that fostered addictions.. being handed out like sweeties. The list can go on. 

The current favourite is statins, which the pharmaceutical industry has taken from a scenaria where they do have a good effect for those with very definite conditions, and managed to transform that into a scenario where almost anyone over a certain age is being recommended, or pushed, to go on statins. 

There  is a valid question there, and Wakefield is not that question. 

 

 

 

Edited February 14 by beefybake

[sugna]

1 minute ago, beefybake said:

My own view then and now, is that the the root question about whether a concoction of vaccines all mixed into one is proveably OK...

is a valid question.  

Scientifically, it is definitely not a valid question. Nothing can ever be proven in a scientific sense, even in principle. That may seem strange, but there are very good reasons for it.

All that can be done scientifically is to gather data in a well-designed (in the Cochrane sense) to reject the null hypothesis that such combined vaccinations do not carry statistically significant additional risk relative to separate vaccinations.

Sorry to be a bit wordy about that, but I don't think it's possible to be any terser without losing the meaning.

So, in short, it's definitely not a valid question in scientific terms.

[Freedom Farter]

1 hour ago, beefybake said:

The current favourite is statins, which the pharmaceutical industry has taken from a scenaria where they do have a good effect for those with very definite conditions, and managed to transform that into a scenario where almost anyone over a certain age is being recommended, or pushed, to go on statins. 

There is legitimate debate over this, though, which probably overlaps with the debate on "Me-Too" drugs.

I think specifically the MMR-autism claim isn't worthy of discussion. The line needs to be drawn somewhere as there's only so much bandwidth available.

Edited February 14 by Freedom Farter

[Boo Khaki]

On 10/11/2023 at 09:31, ICTChris said:

Listening to a podcast from the BBC about the Mad Cow scandal. It’s actually quite mad to remember it all, the government said that beef was safe for years, then said it actually wasn’t. The worst predictions (a million deaths) didn’t come true but hundreds of people did die and there’s still a lot of unknowns about how the disease spread and where it came from.

20'odd years back I was working with the NHS scientists investigating vCJD. General consensus was the bovine variant emerged due to feeding cattle with feed that included offal, bonemeal, and grey matter remnants from Scrapie-infected sheep. The problem with predicting the outcome for humans was timeline. They'd only been aware of the problem for 10 years or so, and projections were that the vCJD prion could possibly lay dormant in humans for 40-50 years before unleashing hell on your brain. They figured that as it took years for the variant to emerge in cattle, it could quite possibly be the same in the case of humans eating infected beef products. Thankfully it's looking less and less likely this is the case and we've escaped the vCJD zombie apocalypse, but I remember sitting in meetings and seminars at the time and being quite worried about the fact that senior clinicians and scientists, who were pretty grounded people and not prone to extravagant fantasy, were throwing their hands up in the air and saying they just didn't know, and the only way we were going to find out was through passage of time.

Edited February 15 by Boo Khaki

[ICTChris]

Quote

 

Think you may have been caught up in the  'public vilifications' .   I didn't at the time have any particular skin in the game but did note...

1. There didn't really seem to have been any proper independent testing of MMR.

2. Wakefield was going against the direct vested interests of the status quo..., ie the drugs industry, the government, and the likes of the BMA.

So he was always likely to be *ucked.

 

1 - There was vast testing of MMR before it was introduced.  It was introduced in the 1970s.  Nothing in the testing or the subsequent studies has shown anything 

2 - The person with vested interests in the vaccine-MMR controversy was Andrew Wakefield, who was being paid by lawyers trying to prove the MMR vaccine caused autism and had a patent for a single vaccine for measles.  Even if his paper was absolutely bang on, why would the drug industry be opposed to it?  Wakefield recommended single vaccinations so if the scary pharma companies are making huge money from vaccines then they'd continue to make the vaccines, it would probably be more profitable.

[beefybake]

2 hours ago, ICTChris said:

1 - There was vast testing of MMR before it was introduced.  It was introduced in the 1970s.  Nothing in the testing or the subsequent studies has shown anything 

2 - The person with vested interests in the vaccine-MMR controversy was Andrew Wakefield, who was being paid by lawyers trying to prove the MMR vaccine caused autism and had a patent for a single vaccine for measles.  Even if his paper was absolutely bang on, why would the drug industry be opposed to it?  Wakefield recommended single vaccinations so if the scary pharma companies are making huge money from vaccines then they'd continue to make the vaccines, it would probably be more profitable.

A  specific reason for the introduction of MMR was economic. It's cheaper in immediate costs to administer several vaccinations at once rather than individually over a period of time. 

The entrenched positions of both government and pharmaceutical companies and their relative powers ... answer your question as to why.

 

[BFTD]

It should be shocking to see someone defending venal amoral con-man Andrew Wakefield in 2024, but he's banging supermodels like Elle MacPherson and making millions from giving speeches to credulous idiots in America, so it's not like he's been seen to suffer in any way. His disgusting behaviour has brought him greater riches than an actual medical career would have.

[beefybake]

32 minutes ago, BFTD said:

It should be shocking to see someone defending venal amoral con-man Andrew Wakefield in 2024, but he's banging supermodels like Elle MacPherson and making millions from giving speeches to credulous idiots in America, so it's not like he's been seen to suffer in any way. His disgusting behaviour has brought him greater riches than an actual medical career would have.

 If you'd  bother reading the thread, you'll see that what the issue really is, is the right to question what is being put in front of you,

and for whose benefit it actually got there.

Edited February 15 by beefybake

[BFTD]

1 hour ago, beefybake said:

 If you'd  bother reading the thread, you'll see that what the issue really is, is the right to question what is being put in front of you,

and for whose benefit it actually got there.

Wakefield's lies were questioned, and it turned out that he was (and still is) the beneficiary.

[ICTChris]

7 hours ago, beefybake said:

 

 

1 hour ago, beefybake said:

 If you'd  bother reading the thread, you'll see that what the issue really is, is the right to question what is being put in front of you,

and for whose benefit it actually got there.

What are you actually saying? What is the issue? 

You have the right to question what is in front of you, other people have the right to point out what actually happened.

I listened to a podcast about this when I was on my run, the whole thing gets worse the more you find out about it. Andrew Wakefield faked his results, lied about his conflicts of interest and actively hurt the children he used as subjects for his paper.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-peter-attia-drive/id1400828889?i=1000517725939
 

[Sergeant Wilson]

2 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

 

What are you actually saying? What is the issue? 

You have the right to question what is in front of you, other people have the right to point out what actually happened.

I listened to a podcast about this when I was on my run, the whole thing gets worse the more you find out about it. Andrew Wakefield faked his results, lied about his conflicts of interest and actively hurt the children he used as subjects for his paper.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-peter-attia-drive/id1400828889?i=1000517725939
 

Aye, but apart from that...