Scottish Infrastructure

[vikingTON]

Just now, LongTimeLurker said:

^^^would normally just ignore this pathetic identity politics obsessed bigot 

^^^ posts three-quarters of his 'material' on the failed statelet politics thread

Attempts to repopulate islands purely on the basis that people can drive there now is not ambition, it is folly. The externalities are paid by everyone in addition to an investment that does not come anywhere near the top of the priority list. 

[Wee Bully]

1 hour ago, virginton said:

^^^ posts three-quarters of his 'material' on the failed statelet politics thread

Attempts to repopulate islands purely on the basis that people can drive there now is not ambition, it is folly. The externalities are paid by everyone in addition to an investment that does not come anywhere near the top of the priority list. 

Yet another hot take from the most self centred person on P&B.

Impressive. 

[vikingTON]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/environment/isle-eigg-population-rises-more-100-1451610

Don't recall the government building a completely fucking daft road tunnel from Arisaig to allow this to happen either. 

[invergowrie arab]

There's a difference between bridging gaps you could hit a 9 iron over and *checks notes* the longest sub sea tunnel in human history for people to alight in Ullapool. 

If we are going to do it connecting Cowal and Kintyre to the central belt would be the place to start.

[tamthebam]

On 22/11/2021 at 08:47, Michael W said:

Yeah, but just look at all the "added value" they brought!

Much as this was never being built, Johnson is a serial fantasist so there will be something else worth a few million in consultancy feasibility studies that will be mooted and then booted a couple of years down the line. He's never gotten over his laughable airport proposal  

Boris's airport proposal wasn't even a new idea, it was first proposed during the Heath Government (Maplin airport proposal)

I think the NI bridge was a daft idea but we keep getting told the UK is the World's 3rd largest economy and an infrastructure project like this is cancelled due to cost.

It was projected that a bridge would have cost £15-20 billion. By comparison London's Crossrail project was estimated to have cost £14-18 billion by last year and HS2 will cost £96 billion.

[parsforlife]

6 minutes ago, tamthebam said:

Boris's airport proposal wasn't even a new idea, it was first proposed during the Heath Government (Maplin airport proposal)

I think the NI bridge was a daft idea but we keep getting told the UK is the World's 3rd largest economy and an infrastructure project like this is cancelled due to cost.

It was projected that a bridge would have cost £15-20 billion. By comparison London's Crossrail project was estimated to have cost £14-18 billion by last year and HS2 will cost £96 billion.

Spending not in/around london work by different rules

Edited November 23, 2021 by parsforlife

[LongTimeLurker]

...or if it's not in the central belt or to connect to it in some way but somewhere out in Outer Teuchtonia in a Scottish context. The Westminster model of excessive centralisation has only been partially shifted rather than replaced.

The more ambitous projects that actually get proposed in a Western Isles context is a tunnel from somewhere north of Uig on Skye to Harris, plus some combination of tunnels, causeways or bridges to be able to island hop from North Uist via Berneray to Harris and South Uist via Eriskay to Barra. That would directly hook up 25% of Scotland's island population to the mainland road network 24/7 for about 3 years worth of ferry subsidies in a Scottish context if it could be done at Faroese prices.

Ullapool doesn't rate a mention unless someone is deliberately trying to discredit the idea (another poster who may have TFS thread related issues as the motivating factor). What does rate a mention sometimes though is how fixed links can potentially be used to help the roll out of renewables by also accomodating grid cable connectors to the mainland and possibly especially in an Orkney context by helping to harness tidal power.

Edited November 24, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[vikingTON]

A tunnel from Ullapool would be significantly less moronic than trying to use Skye as a through traffic route to Stornoway. We're grading on a curve normally reserved for 5 year olds drawing pictures of unicorns next to the map as well though. 

[LongTimeLurker]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/450m-western-isles-tunnel-proposal-23839576

...Norconsult has led projects to construct tunnels in Norway and the Faroes. Following discussions with MacNeil, the consultants prepared a brief suggesting a tunnel between Harris and Skye as the best option with a possible additional inter-island link between Harris and North Uist.

[invergowrie arab]

7 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

...or if it's not in the central belt or to connect to it in some way but somewhere out in Outer Teuchtonia in a Scottish context. The Westminster model of excessive centralisation has only been partially shifted rather than replaced.

The more ambitous projects that actually get proposed in a Western Isles context is a tunnel from somewhere north of Uig on Skye to Harris, plus some combination of tunnels, causeways or bridges to be able to island hop from North Uist via Berneray to Harris and South Uist via Eriskay to Barra. That would directly hook up 25% of Scotland's island population to the mainland road network 24/7 for about 3 years worth of ferry subsidies in a Scottish context if it could be done at Faroese prices.

Ullapool doesn't rate a mention unless someone is deliberately trying to discredit the idea (another poster who may have TFS thread related issues as the motivating factor). What does rate a mention sometimes though is how fixed links can potentially be used to help the roll out of renewables by also accomodating grid cable connectors to the mainland and possibly especially in an Orkney context by helping to harness tidal power.

You're not a well man.

Getting back to the subject at hand Scalpay's population continues to decline. The transformative effect on Vatersay and Eriskay has been population stabilisation and has allowed people to live and work in Barra or South Uist. But that's in the context of an overall continued population decline in the Western Isles as a whole. Its rearranging the deckchairs. 

We are also talking about populations less than a blocks of flats.

145 million to connect Harris and Skye is a laughable figure. The Luncarty to Pass of Birnam dualling project on the A9 which dualled 6 miles of an existing A road on land cost 96 million.

Even if it was achieved people will be making landfall a 2.5 hour drive from any sort of economic hub. 

Thinking about economic infrastructure investment as roads is 20th century nonsense. Its information connectivity and remote working that's going to sustain rural communities in the century to come. Which is why rhe Comhairle nan Eilean Siar are investing in comms hubs throughout the islands to allow remote teaching so a geography teacher living in Bearnaray can take the class at the Nicholson in Stornoway.

[LongTimeLurker]

^^^Fortunately SNP politicians like Angus MacNeil and Brendan O'Hara are not as closed minded on this issue as this guy is and understand the possibilities for the island communities they represent.

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[honestly united]

Before we start connecting up small island's would it not be better creating some decent roads to connect up the bigger population centers that take ages to get to. If you look at the west coast from Glasgow its over 2 and half hours to places like Oban, Campbletown, Lochgilphead etc are all, as the crow flies about 60 miles from Glasgow, with a few tunnels and a few new roads (as per my detailed plan below) you could open up a places like Dunoon and Rothesay  to being within commuter distance of Glasgow, and a huge chunk being of the west coast being able to get there in 90 minutes or so. That would be much more of a benefit to people on these islands as no point getting to the main land then still being hours from the main population hubs

 

[Newbornbairn]

5 minutes ago, honestly united said:

Before we start connecting up small island's would it not be better creating some decent roads to connect up the bigger population centers that take ages to get to. If you look at the west coast from Glasgow its over 2 and half hours to places like Oban, Campbletown, Lochgilphead etc are all, as the crow flies about 60 miles from Glasgow, with a few tunnels and a few new roads (as per my detailed plan below) you could open up a places like Dunoon and Rothesay  to being within commuter distance of Glasgow, and a huge chunk being of the west coast being able to get there in 90 minutes or so. That would be much more of a benefit to people on these islands as no point getting to the main land then still being hours from the main population hubs

 

 

 

Or (maybe also) a wee tunnel/bridge across to Arran. A bit of motorway from Brodick to Kilmory then another wee tunnel/bridge across to Campbelltown. 

[Detournement]

We've found Boris's log ins.

[LongTimeLurker]

These are the options that have been looked at to deal with the Rest and Be Thankful landslip issue:

https://www.scotsman.com/news/transport/bridges-or-tunnels-across-clyde-among-bypass-options-rest-and-be-thankful-landslip-hotspot-2980670

Bute and Wee Cumbrae are more likely than Arran for fixed links related to that but probably also in don't hold your breath sort of territory at least where the Wee Cumbrae angle is concerned:

https://www.largsandmillportnews.com/news/18765464.incredible-plan-considered-see-tunnel-linking-portencross-wee-cumbrae-isle-bute/

Edited November 24, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[invergowrie arab]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

^^^Fortunately SNP politicians like Angus MacNeil and Brendan O'Hara are not as closed minded on this issue as this guy is and understand the possibilities for the island communities they represent.

 

Angus MacNeill is a pea brained quarter wit and I'm literally arguing we should do this in Brendan o Hara's constitunecy

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, honestly united said:

Before we start connecting up small island's would it not be better creating some decent roads to connect up the bigger population centers that take ages to get to. If you look at the west coast from Glasgow its over 2 and half hours to places like Oban, Campbletown, Lochgilphead etc are all, as the crow flies about 60 miles from Glasgow, with a few tunnels and a few new roads (as per my detailed plan below) you could open up a places like Dunoon and Rothesay  to being within commuter distance of Glasgow, and a huge chunk being of the west coast being able to get there in 90 minutes or so. That would be much more of a benefit to people on these islands as no point getting to the main land then still being hours from the main population hubs

 

There's no purpose in Dunoon never mind Rothesay being commuter towns for Glasgow post-Covid. For Rothesay, you'd still be much better off with the ferry than that shan route anyway.

The correct answer to link the west coast to civilisation would run north from the City of Greenock to Kilcreggan/Rosneath peninsula first and then jump over to Cowal north of Dunoon, on the other side of the Holy Loch. That's two roughly 2 mile bridges and connects directly to the existing road for Strachur and Loch Fyne, with both Dunoon and the RaBT skirted around rather than passed through. Another bridge over to Furnace from SW of Strachur cuts about another 30 miles off the journey around Loch Fyne. And as Furnace is a bit of an eyesore anyway nobody can complain about that. 

The flaw with a shorter southern connection is that the existing road to Portavadie is completely impractical on the northern approaches to Tignabruich, while Glendaruel blocks any major route over to Otter Ferry without a hell of a lot of work and objections. 

These three straightforward bridges would of course be accompanied by a train line that continues to Lochgilphead, with Tarbert and eventually Campbeltown added as well. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by vikingTON

[8MileBU]

1 hour ago, virginton said:

There's no purpose in Dunoon never mind Rothesay being commuter towns for Glasgow post-Covid. For Rothesay, you'd still be much better off with the ferry than that shan route anyway.

The correct answer to link the west coast to civilisation would run north from the City of Greenock to Kilcreggan/Rosneath peninsula first and then jump over to Cowal north of Dunoon, on the other side of the Holy Loch. That's two roughly 2 mile bridges and connects directly to the existing road for Strachur and Loch Fyne, with both Dunoon and the RaBT skirted around rather than passed through. Another bridge over to Furnace from SW of Strachur cuts about another 30 miles off the journey around Loch Fyne. And as Furnace is a bit of an eyesore anyway nobody can complain about that. 

The flaw with a shorter southern connection is that the existing road to Portavadie is completely impractical on the northern approaches to Tignabruich, while Glendaruel blocks any major route over to Otter Ferry without a hell of a lot of work and objections. 

These three straightforward bridges would of course be accompanied by a train line that continues to Lochgilphead, with Tarbert and eventually Campbeltown added as well. 

The road from Sandbank or Strachur over to Portavadie, Tighnabruaich etc as it stands currently is barely fit for purpose and an utterly terrifying experience such is the speed those fucking McKerral’s log lorries go to get up the uphill sections which are often single track stretches where the drivers  effectively have to just go-for-it and f**k anyone coming the other direction.

Pretty much everywhere surrounding that road is dedicated to sustainable forestry and there’s also the hydroelectric dam, pipeline and powerstation infrastructure stretching for a fair few miles. So like you say, any proposals would be met with no end of objections and that’s before “the locals” chucked in their tuppence worth. 

That said, I’d much rather any tunnel was connected directly to Dunoon as it really is a sorry state of a place nowadays and any short direct road link might encourage some sorely needed investment in the area if there’s the prospect of a significant increase in daily visitors or people passing through. That said, in true British fashion, the first thing they’d probably do is pop a fucking Greggs and a Subway on the High Street.

Edited November 24, 2021 by 8MileBU

[LongTimeLurker]

Dunoon-Otter Ferry-Lochgilphead is the axis that makes most sense over the longer term to lower journey times from Kintyre, Islay and Mid Argyll into Glasgow in a balanced sort of way but would obviously need a lot of work to upgrade from narrow road with passing places format.  When you have somebody suggesting in official documents a tunnel via the virtually uninhabited Wee Cumbrae rather than Great Cumbrae that has Millport on it you have to wonder how serious they are about any of this though.

Even if nothing else happens a Faroese style tunnel to Dunoon should be a no brainer in the short term given the relatively large population involved. If you did that with spurs heading to the north and south ends of the town in a similar way to what the Esturoyartunnilin does:

Maybe a short tunnel from the south end of Cowal to the Rothesay area makes sense at that point.

Edited November 25, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[Newbornbairn]

Does it affect things that the water is quite deep in those areas - up to 400ft+? The English Channel is about 150ft.