baillieinleeds Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 We're not going to get the likes of Tade back; we might get Graham but he wouldnt be a huge improvement on the team. We always do things on the cheap, players and managers, and thats not going to change much for the new season. Penman at least had ambition for the club, the present short sigghted board arent going to spend money for the benefit ofwe spectators. We can dream all we like, but we'll be watching shite again next season. Dude, the board have to make decisions that we don't like. But i believe they make them for the long term stability for the club they and we love. We will not overspend to achieve an unreacheable carrot. Btw, Brian Graham would be a fucking huge improvement to our frontline. I don't always agree with some of the posters on here, but this time i'm right behind them. The board have said Bert will have a bigger budget, i'm sure they have a list of players they want. Lets all hang fire and see what happens, it's exciting to see who is and who isn't coming. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Archer (Raconteur) Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 The idea that the board, who continually plug gaps in cash flow with their own money, are ripping us off is laughable. Big Berk, the constant negativity adds nothing so I was inviting you to make some constructive suggestions - not seen any yet though. 'Showing ambition' is a bit vague, but if you're suggesting spending more money I'd love to know where it's coming from. If that's not what you mean, what do you mean? Well said. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Berk Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Baillie, I'm not challenging either the board or Berts commitment to the club. I'm saying I've no confidence in how they're going about it. Clubs like Dumbarton and Cowdenbeath can put out teams with more than a semblence of entertainment value - we cant. Meanwhile, the average Pie and Bovril Raith fan still seems incapable of answering a simple question... Excuses are accepted as proof of the affirmative 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CALDERON Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 The usual schoolboy debating trick - take the opposing point of view and present it in an extreme form. Now, let me ask YOU and RAT Machine a question - do you think the present management and squad are value for money? OUR money. That would be easily caricatured. BTW RAT Machine, you sure readers will see your witty sign? No. I don't. But does that mean throwing money at the squad is the right thing to do? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Berk Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 No. I don't. But does that mean throwing money at the squad is the right thing to do? Thank you, that is sufficent. The second part is irrelevent, because I've never anywhere advocated it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rover1990 Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Baillie, I'm not challenging either the board or Berts commitment to the club. I'm saying I've no confidence in how they're going about it. Clubs like Dumbarton and Cowdenbeath can put out teams with more than a semblence of entertainment value - we cant. Meanwhile, the average Pie and Bovril Raith fan still seems incapable of answering a simple question... Excuses are accepted as proof of the affirmative They're not excuses they are facts, we would all like to see the team playing better but with the way our clubs run and with our resources we have to except that if we want complete quality then it comes at the cost of a very small squad and as seen this season it doesn't work. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Brilliant Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 (edited) Thank you, that is sufficent. The second part is irrelevent, because I've never anywhere advocated it. What are you advocating then? What I'm seeing is: posts saying everything is pish and will stay pish, and nothing constructive. Edited May 24, 2014 by L. Brilliant 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoss Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Thanks to the "ambition" of previous boards we're lucky still to be in business and will have more years yet of belt-tightening before we've paid off the ground debt and recovered from those days. You can shove your ambition up your arse. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raith Against The Machine Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 The usual schoolboy debating trick - take the opposing point of view and present it in an extreme form. Now, let me ask YOU and RAT Machine a question - do you think the present management and squad are value for money? OUR money. That would be easily caricatured. BTW RAT Machine, you sure readers will see your witty sign? I'm sorry for not answering a direct question, but I find "value for money" a difficult point to address. Do I think that performances in the past season have been worth the gate money I (we?) pay every week - no, probably not, but that's definitely more to do with the high gate prices than it is the quality of the squad. I'm not sure there's a team in this league that provided true "value for money" this season. Even Dundee who won the league only scraped it, and they charge a fortune. Do I feel that some players in the squad last season didn't do enough to justify the wages they earned? Yes. Do I think the same of Grant Murray? No. Although I can entirely understand anyone who disagrees with that. The current squad (which consists of about 6 players at the moment, but assuming those who have been offered extensions accept them) and management team are sustainable (nay, profitable) and although that's not the most glamorous of attributes, it has to be the most important one for a club like ours. We could spend a fortune for a superstar management team and a squad of galacticos, but what's the point if it cripples the club eighteen months down the line. Now, of course, we could find another management team that command the same wages as Grant Murray et al, but there's no guarantee of success there. Look at Morton, who thought they were trading up on Allan Moore. Last season, Grant Murray built an excellent starting eleven, but it was backed up by a paper-thin squad, both in numbers and quality. I've rambled on more than once since the season's end about the need for him to address that issue for this coming year. I'm confident that he will, but if he doesn't, then I'll be asking questions along with everyone else. I'm a naturally conservative football supporter (I believe the preferred term is "happy clapper"). I err on the side of continuity and allowing managers and players to learn from their mistakes, in favour of chopping and changing. I'd like it if my football club had a reputation as one where young managers and young players could come and gain experience before moving onto greater things, and where seasoned veterans know they can come and impart their knowledge to younger guys whilst making a move into coaching. Of course, above all of this, is a desire for success, but I believe that it's a model that can provide that. We won the Challenge Cup this year, winning the final against the most extravagantly assembled team the competition has ever seen. Okay, it's not the Champions League, but supporters of Raith Rovers saw their team lift a knock-out trophy for only the second time in 131 years. To paraphrase Maximus Decimus Meridius, were you not entertained? I was. Knowing what we know now - that despite the dreadful form in the second half of the season, we still secured our place in the Division without the need for the play-offs - would you swap that Final for a few more wins against Queen of the South and Livingston? I wouldn't. This season coming probably won't be a very pretty one for us. I truly believe we'll survive again, I think we'll have more than enough to finish above Cowdenbeath and Alloa (although all three teams have still to assemble something remotely resembling a squad) but it'll be a much stronger league than last season. If the teams that win the league and represent the Championship in the play-off final at the end of the season aren't Hearts and Rangers I'll be staggered. That's going to be the case even if the board did follow your suggestion and throw money at "ambition". All the ambition in the world won't provide us with the resources to compete with either of those two. Best case scenario for us this coming season is probably a fourth place finish. I can't see us finishing ahead of Hibs or Hamilton. We'd have to have a very good season to get ahead of Livi/Dumbarton/Queen of the South but it's not unthinkable. At this time, I'd be happy enough with a mid-table finish, to set us up for a play-off push the season after. I'm sure the board will be thinking along the same lines, and will have provided Grant Murray with a budget that makes that achievable. If we're struggling to compete with Alloa and Cowdenbeath (or whoever is at the arse end of the league) and we reach Christmas time, I'll be seriously questioning the ability of Murray and his team, but at this time, I'm happy to let them build a squad and do their best. If they can start the league season anywhere near as well as they did last year, I'll be delighted. (Kudos for RAT Machine, by the way. Scathing.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Berk Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 I'm sorry for not answering a direct question, but I find "value for money" a difficult point to address. Do I think that performances in the past season have been worth the gate money I (we?) pay every week - no, probably not, but that's definitely more to do with the high gate prices than it is the quality of the squad. I'm not sure there's a team in this league that provided true "value for money" this season. Even Dundee who won the league only scraped it, and they charge a fortune. Do I feel that some players in the squad last season didn't do enough to justify the wages they earned? Yes. Do I think the same of Grant Murray? No. Although I can entirely understand anyone who disagrees with that. (Kudos for RAT Machine, by the way. Scathing.) Thank you for the admissions. I'm wasnt saying any more than that. We're seriously underperforming, which is to my cosiderable frustration and not my enjoyment as some would clearly make out. Value for money, in the context of a football club, but in every other walk of life is no more having people do what theyre paid to do. There are a number of clubs in our league with much less resources and income than ours but are capable of puting out a half decent team, unlike us. The fans recognised that many months ago, the management of the club apparently not, which is an aggravating factor. RAT Machine was in retaliation for the 9 year old's Santa Claus list. I didnt start it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pride of Fife Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 I'm all for a bit of 'ambition' this season. Our income from last was good despite the team underachieving in the league. Couple that with the undoubted soar in profit from attendances etc next season, throw in the spfl prize money that didn't exist this time a year ago and we could easily double our playing budget and still be in profit. Not suggesting we SHOULD double it but would hate another season of chronic entertainment in terms of football we play but have people happy enough because we are making money. There has to be a balance somewhere, sure, many of us watch Raith out of love/habit but plenty more come to Starks for enjoyment, entertainment and to see us win football matches, how many have seen that often over the last 6months? I would like a larger squad than last season (3or4 players) with quality added, not utility type benchwarmers. Least we should be targeting is finishing above the 3 part time teams while ideally we would be in the shake up for top 4 again. Perform like last season and we face a long hard relegation battle, no two ways about it. All well and good playing Hearts and Sevco but not my idea of fun if we are getting hammered by them. It's a long summer and plenty time to get the right players in but when you consider how poor we were last season and already we have lost two of our best players in Cardle and Baird while Booth is unlikely to be back any time soon... We have a huge amount of work to do to get where we should be in terms of squad and that is before you consider the obvious flaws in Murray's management skills even if/when we do get the players in... Three words to describe my feelings for next season right now, Excited, hopeful but Scared (that we do a Morton) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scary Bear Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Update: Still waiting for an intelligent reply to a simple question .... fast appearing to be beyond the ability of the average Pie and Bovril Raith fan PS - excuses dont count So tell us. What is our player budget? What was the budget of the other teams in our league last season? Without knowing the answers to those questions, it's difficult to answer your question. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MICMAC Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 The quality of opposition next season should draw a better standard of player to the league. The chance of playing hearts and sevco a minimum of 4 times each in front of large crowds, should be mouth watering to players. Players are still on holiday at the moment and won't know if they're going to be released or not. There's going to be a lot of prem div players that will relish the chance to play in this league. We just have to bide our time and wait a week or two to see who becomes available. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowden til i die Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Rat machine 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev23 Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Rat machine I was laughing at that way more than I should. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Starko Rover Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 (edited) To an extent I can see what Big Berk is getting at and correct me if I'm wrong he's not suggesting we go out and blow money we don't have as paying off our debt is obviously vital. He's basically saying we should be showing a bit more ambition to play better football and finish higher up the league with the budget we have. Where we finished last season and the poor football we played should really have been unacceptable to the board and us the fans we were outplayed and finished below teams who are far smaller than ourselves and in some ways I have to agree.While we don't have a large support it is bigger than Cowdenbeath, Alloa, Dumbarton and Livingston and probably on a par with Queen of the South and Morton regardless of our debt we should still be fielding a team that can play more attractive football and be able to try and fight for 4th in this league. Ok next season will be tougher but accepting avoiding relegation every season in a league with 3-4 smaller teams is a lack of ambition and we should be aiming higher, hoofball and relegation scraps will not see any more fans coming through the gates. I hope what Murray signs in the summer can address our style of play while getting results as the last 6 months was hardly entertaining for any of the non hard core supporters who might of wandered up to the odd game. The question I ask my self is could we have destroyed Dunfermline in the way Cowdenbeath did and the answer sadly is no and they have a tiny budget compared to ours which tells a pretty poor story of us last season. Hopefully we have a stronger squad this coming season and Murray has learned from last season. Edited May 24, 2014 by San Starko Rover 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoss Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 So what form should this ambition take if it doesn't mean spending more money? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael W Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 I don't think it was ever said that we should throw money around. All that was said was that the club should show ambition. Unfortunately, I think we did show ambition last sesson but we failed to deliver upon our expectations and had a horrendous second half of the season. As far as I'm concerned the buck stops for that with Murray and the players who didn't perform to the standard we expect of them. It certainly isn't the board's fault. My early mood isn't confident - last season was dreadful for the most part, two of our best players are gone and a couple who should be out the door are staying or have been offered a contract. On top of that, I have no confidence in our manager. We do need to quantify what we mean be showing ambition though - a larger squad and a good signings are probably on the money, but we have to be sensible about it. We can afford it next season so some cautious optimism is fine; recklessness of yesteryear is not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoss Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 So if you wanted a larger squad but it's not about spending more money then what are you saying? You wanted them to sign more players but cheaper ones? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael W Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Eh? I said nothing of the sort - merely asking what qualified as ambition. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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