Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Cloontang]

Is anyone looking for a new job?

 

 

 

[thisGRAEME]

1 hour ago, Kapowzer said:

The young guys like McKinstry and Tierney (the former who he nurtured in the academy) we dropped for Aitchison and Danzaki both just off the plane. That is a major demoraliser.

This for me is the thing that annoyed me the most, fwiw. Atrocious man management.

[Kapowzer]

Hammy:

Quote

Disappointing. We needed a reaction from midweek and I changed it up in our approach as we'd looked fragile early in the last couple of games.

"We wanted to be better at that, but then the goal we concede just before half-time changes the momentum. We didn't test the keeper enough. Frustrating day.

"Decision-making wasn't good enough and we didn't cause them enough problems.

"It's not good enough, the form we've shown recently. It's a concern.

Thomas Courts Esq:

Quote

Unsatisfactory. We (by which I mean us in the collective) required a retort from midweek and I transformed our methodology as we'd looked flimsy early in the last couple of association football matches.

"A prerequisite was to be superior, but then the goal we forfeit just before half-time changes the impetus. We did not as questions of their goalkeeper. A vexing evening for myself and the Denizens of Fir Park.

"Our on field policymaking was not good enough and we did not cause them enough tribulations.

"It is not worthy, the manifestation of results we've shown recently. It is an apprehension.”

Edited February 13, 2023 by Kapowzer

[Kapowzer]

12 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

This for me is the thing that annoyed me the most, fwiw. Atrocious man management.

Blaney has November off and we nurture him for another 5 weeks to bring him up to speed and give him a midseason preseason. Not as if he went off to Italy and did a Robert De Nero Raging Bull diet. Danzaki is in the A league and arrives on what the Monday, jet lagged and ...... "there you go son, keep tight to your man and look to play it out wide". For all his experience Hammy was tone deaf to the optics of that decision.

[capt_oats]

2 hours ago, Kapowzer said:

Nothing concrete for me just more of a feeling than anything else. I think Hammell did suck the confidence out the team in different ways. The young guys like McKinstry and Tierney (the former who he nurtured in the academy) we dropped for Aitchison and Danzaki both just off the plane. That is a major demoraliser.

Stuck by guys like Goss and Lamie (granted the latter because of zero options - but again on him as manager there were none) and other guys sitting watching thinking, how poorly must he see me that I'm benched over this guy. Shit like that leads to resentment.

On one hand you've got Liam Kelly greetin and Shields/Maguire can't get out the door quick enough. I have no idea what the dressing room is like but it seems to have little cliques of differing views on what is the best the plan going forward.

But if senior pro's have approached Flao either collectively or individually that points to he doesn't know what he's doing rather than all hands to the pumps and believing in the process. 

SOD for all his faults, I'd kind have to agree doing to Ibrox and defending narrow is a mindboggler when you've got guys like Tavernier ranging down the wings.

So I do think whoever the next permanent guy is has a joint task of motivating and getting all 28 (mental number) players pulling in the same direction.

@Casagolda covered this better than me in a post a couple of pages back but it's not that he stuck by Goss (to use him as an example) that I see as the issue it's the fact that it seemed clear that it wasn't working, the mix wasn't right, our set up didn't play to his strengths but Hammell just...didn't do anything about it. That's true of others as well, not just Goss.

Didn't try and change anything just week after week scratched his head, said he was disappointed and then went again with a shape that wasn't working. He was effectively hanging his players out to dry.

You can say what you like about players and their relative abilities but if the instructions/tactics they're being told to execute are legitimately making them look bad then that's going to cause issues even if they're in the starting line up and getting their appearance money.

That's before you even get to your (entirely correct) point about binning players who had been alright out the team for folk who were literally just in the door.

There are clearly questions to be asked about this squad given that's some of them soon to be on their 4th manager in the space of 3 years and a good chunk at least on to their 3rd.

There was a downing of tools under Robinson (he alluded to it before he resigned as did Lasley), they did it under Alexander and now Hammell. In SOD's case, IIRC he was one of the agitators in Alessio getting emptied from Killie as well.

That's...not a good look.

Similarly though, everything points to Hammell simply not being a very good coach for this level.

Both things can be true and tbh, that feels like a pretty toxic combination.

Edited February 13, 2023 by capt_oats

[Swello]

I know it's the least of our worries at the moment - but what has happened to SOD? From St Johnstone onwards, he has been genuinely abysmal to the point he looks completely broken - even allowing for the fact that some of the failings of the team has hung him out to dry. If it's some physical problem, it's a shame for him but he has been looking so uncomfortable on the ball which was never the case.

I think his Motherwell career has been mediocre but at this point there surely can't be any argument that we give Max Johnston the starting berth and let him get on with it.

[Marinello]

Watching Hammell make his'  long walk' at Starks Park I couldn't help but give him sympathy. Here was a guy who IMHO had barely got a break during his tenure.

Remembering that he hadn't sought the job when giving up his secure post and showed by the victories in Dingwall and Pittodrie that he had a sound football brain, he was to suffer a catalogue of bad luck which I have never known in over 60 years of watching football;

* Loss of Carroll very early doors.

* Denied services of his marquis signings Louis and Aron's

* Inexplicable player failings costing us several points eg Perth Saints in August, Utd at home, Killie away, Rangers at home ( even Hearts at home)

* October/ November injuries to the improving Efford, Mugabi and temporary loss of Mc Ginn.

* Scandalous deniel of penalties at Hibs , home to Aberdeen and more recently in Paisley.

* Of late , the amateurish failings of players at home to Hibs and County .

* The unfortunate loss of Blaney and Mandron.

* The unforseen implosion of SOD

* The denial of a settled back 4.

All of the above taken together resulted inevitably in a loss of confidence by the team as witnessed by the horror shows in the last 3 games.

Don't get me wrong as I'm not exonerating Hammell for all the team   failings- his tactical limitations recently bear this out-but to me he just didn't get a break that could have helped turn the tide. Even on Saturday when we were on top at 1-2 down a deflected clearance by RR hit the crossbar. If that goes in I'm pretty certain that our momentum would have seen us win.

But when your luck is out your luck is out.

Yup by Saturday there was no way back for Hammell as the rot had truly set in but I do  hope those shouting " sacked in the morning" take time to reflect on the many circumstances that contrived to work against him.

 

[YassinMoutaouakil]

Aye I still don't think Hammell was ever going to make it here, but I genuinely don't think we've ever had worse luck in a season than this. It doesn't really take too much imagination for us to be sitting somewhere between 4th to 8th right now and everything feeling relatively rosy. I do think in that scenario it would probably have still unraveled eventually, probably just next season instead.

[Kapowzer]

@capt_oats The one game we’ve looked like team with something about us was Aberdeen away early doors and that tied in with the first mention of the Goss redemption arc. Now as good as we were that day, Aberdeen were also poor and it allowed us the luxury of Goss sitting deeper.

I said at the time we can’t afford the luxury of a midfielder who sits deep and offers the defence no protection and can’t contribute much to the 2 ahead of him, especially in this league when other players in our lineup are deficient in aspects of their game too.

I wonder how much Hammy bought into the Goss story like us? And week after week hoped the next one would be the game that could recreate that. Plenty of guys like that in every bookies in Scotland.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Kapowzer

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

There's absolutely no doubt that I have sympathy for Hammell on a number of factors, but unfortunately none of them made his position any more tenable.

I can see why he rolled the dice with Moult and Aarons. Moult has proven before that he can be a top player for us at this level when fit. Aarons has played at a high-level for Newcastle before and comes with a pedigree of sorts. The reason we got both of them in was the fact that they were both injured as f**k and had a connection to the club. When you see our January recruitment in forward areas Mandron, Obika, Crankshaw, Danzaki and Aitchison - it's clear to see the alternative to Moult and Aarons was a significant drop off in quality. However, if you take a double risk on injury prone players, you have to carry the can when it doesn't work.

As for the settled back four - I think we probably managed to play McGinn - Solholm - Lamie - Penney probably more than we played any back four last season. Maybe it just seems like that. We knew from the moment that Penney signed that his loan was up on 18th January, yet we slept walked in to going back to playing right-backs as left-backs after he went. Now we find ourselves in a scenario where we do have a left-back, but he's not considered good enough to play in front of the right-backs who are doing it badly. I'm not going to sit here and defend the performances of some of them, but to my mind if you are Hammell and you sub a full-back at half time twice in three games, you're as much to blame for putting them out there as they are for performing like that. Show me any player who can perform knowing that one slip means they're hooked at half-time.

I know with injuries etc numbers were low as January started, but I still feel we focused wrongly on quantity rather than quality with the players we brought in. I don't want to go all hypocritical as I certainly said my piece about Shields out wide, but am I convinced that Jack Aitchison (another striker playing out wide) will do any better? Am I convinced that Ollie Crankshaw who was struggling for a game in league two will be? It seems to me, particularly in forward areas, we have probably just signed different problems, rather than solutions.

I think at least Butcher and Casey have the potential to *do a job* for us. I get that January is a hard market and you can't always do things in the order you please and there's not always the required quality available at your budget, but for me, those two should have come in first, hopefully solidified the spine of the team and then you can add a bit attacking wise from there.

For me, McKinstry and Van Veen aren't perfect by any stretch, but they were far down our list of problems. For us to sign so many players in January and start the second game after the Window shuts with those two on the bench is just utterly baffling. 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by crazylegsjoe_mfc

[one m in Motherwell]

The thing is, for most clubs at our level January is an absolute lottery.  Blaney alone seems to have been a longer term target (potentially Danzaki too) but with most of them it’s a matter of them becoming available at the right time - and that’s as much a result of things happening elsewhere as it will be us making a convincing pitch to a player.

 

We went into the window needing:

 

- a combative midfielder (Butcher)

- new blood in the centre of defence (Blaney/Casey)

- help for (or at least an alternative to) KVV - Aitchison/Mandron/Obika

 

The only gap we really haven’t filled is left back. 

 

Now, of course the folk we’ve brought could be utterly humpty (they’ve certainly not set things ablaze so far), and we’ve been unfortunate in the injuries to Blaney and Mandron, but surely to f**k someone can get a tune out of this lot…

[Handsome_Devil]

17 minutes ago, one m in Motherwell said:

Now, of course the folk we’ve brought could be utterly humpty (they’ve certainly not set things ablaze so far), and we’ve been unfortunate in the injuries to Blaney and Mandron, but surely to f**k someone can get a tune out of this lot…

Killie pick up points at home, County are on a surge and United, despite their struggles, still have some quality we can only dream of having.

Even if we pick up a bit, it'll still be bawhair tight to make 11th never mind outright safety.

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, Marinello said:

Watching Hammell make his'  long walk' at Starks Park I couldn't help but give him sympathy. Here was a guy who IMHO had barely got a break during his tenure.

Remembering that he hadn't sought the job when giving up his secure post and showed by the victories in Dingwall and Pittodrie that he had a sound football brain, he was to suffer a catalogue of bad luck which I have never known in over 60 years of watching football;

I'm maybe misinterpreting you but is it actually true he hadn't sought the job?

Presumably we didn't force him to put his name forward and interview.

Like Craigan he could simply have said that he'd happily oversee things in the interim but was happy with his Academy job - in Craigan's case it was working with Devs and combining that with his media work.

Equally we didn't need to give him the job. Pretty sure Lasley had applied 3 times and lost out each time. We weren't obliged because of who he was.

Instead Hammell put his name forward and I'm guessing interviewed well enough to be given the job.

As I say, I'm maybe misinterpreting you but it's not like he Costanza'd his way into being First Team Manager at Motherwell Football Club.

Edited February 13, 2023 by capt_oats

[Marinello]

Perhaps I'm being naive but my recollection was that rather than Hammell hanging around the directors office waiting to take advantage of Alexander's dismissal he was instead in Arran with his family. 

Hardly the behaviour of an opportunist hell bent on career advancement. 

My take was that because of Motherwell's predicament Hammell out of loyalty to the club was open to the offer.

 

[thisGRAEME]

43 minutes ago, one m in Motherwell said:

The only gap we really haven’t filled is left back. 

I mean, on this as well; if you don't think the kid you've brought in can do it against a lower league side, then why have you brought him in?

Edited February 13, 2023 by thisGRAEME
being a fuckin dingbat

[Londonwell]

I don't think you can criticise Hammell for taking the job. Professional sports people surely have to back their own ability to be able to get anywhere in the game. Throw into the mix that he obviously has a real affinity with the club, then perhaps it was a dream of his.

The onus was on the board to recognise that these sorts of appointments hardly ever work and given our already step decline at the time, with horrific squad management, it was mental to offer it to someone with no experience. 

[welldaft]

Just now, Londonwell said:

I don't think you can criticise Hammell for taking the job. Professional sports people surely have to back their own ability to be able to get anywhere in the game. Throw into the mix that he obviously has a real affinity with the club, then perhaps it was a dream of his.

The onus was on the board to recognise that these sorts of appointments hardly ever work and given our already step decline at the time, with horrific squad management, it was mental to offer it to someone with no experience. 

Very much this. 

If I also recall did we not win a game or two before his official appointment ?

So club legend helps out. Does reasonably well to begin with. Interviews well and has the goodwill to back it up. Thinks I can do the job and probably wants to test himself. Board are like we have won a watch.

I was told that Hammell was a shoe in and that the few other interviews or zoom calls were a tick box exercise. 

I was not unhappy at the time. But it is not an easy job even for an experienced Manager. Especially with a squad full of gutless wimps that cannot motivate themselves to try harder ! So it proved a step too far. In hindsight and sadly few of us are surprised how it eventually turned out. 

Let’s hope we do not let history repeat itself. Even were we to win the next two games I would still be very wary of appointing Kettlewell on a long term gig. 

 

[rowsdower]

If kettlewell wins us two games he should get the freedom of the town, never mind the managers job. 

As bad as our current situation is, we have 2 games against each of the teams around us, plus at least a couple against the 7th and 8th place teams. We did just get hammered by raith and are hopeless, but the new manager must look at that and think it's doable.

Edited February 13, 2023 by rowsdower

[Archie McSquackle]

41 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

I mean, on this as well; if you don't think the kid you've brought in can do it against a lower league side, then why have you brought him in?

The only reason I could come up with on Saturday was that we were playing two debutants at centre-half and we wanted some experience either side. I thought Johnston was even more unlucky to miss out.

[eliphas]

26 minutes ago, Archie McSquackle said:

The only reason I could come up with on Saturday was that we were playing two debutants at centre-half and we wanted some experience either side. I thought Johnston was even more unlucky to miss out.

Aye it's either that or he's got him mainly on recommendations and then seen him in training.