Junior football, what is the future?

[Ranaldo Bairn]

Quite possibly.
When you see the enormo-brains at the top it seems even more likely...

Could be wrong but the fact a west leagues still hasn’t been setup makes me think the SFA aren’t really that bothered about it.

[Ranaldo Bairn]

Ach I know but you'd think they'd be laying down the law to a minor segment of their remit: Get In Line.

They won't do anything like that.

[Arthurlie1981]

Disappointed but not surprised by tonight’s discussions. Pretty poor from Rod Petrie just to throw his toys out of the pram and just say they are not going to be anymore PWG meetings. There are always other options and they should have been stronger (especially with the SJFA and option z). For me the SFA should have taken charge of this if they really wanted this to happen. Change needs to be lead, not left to be manipulated by parties with vested interest.

One question for me is are the LL going to approach clubs in the west to gauge interest or are they going to wait for clubs to come to them? West region clubs may note want to stick the head above the parapet without knowing there is insurance there for them of another league.

Personally and I hope I am wrong is that without some of the bigger teams in the west leading a move away then this is the end.

[Dev]

My reading of all this is that the SJFA has thrown in the towel about participating in the Pyramid.

This clears the way for the missing WoS league to be set up with no cause for recriminations by any association or club.

It also voluntarily cuts the SJFA out of any Pyramid discussions within the next few seasons. Never been a better time to invite expressions of interest from clubs in a new WoS league.

It's about making things happen so this clears the way!

[glensmad]

My reading of all this is that the SJFA has thrown in the towel about participating in the Pyramid.
This clears the way for the missing WoS league to be set up with no cause for recriminations by any association or club.
It also voluntarily cuts the SJFA out of any Pyramid discussions within the next few seasons. Never been a better time to invite expressions of interest from clubs in a new WoS league.
It's about making things happen so this clears the way!

I agree.

[Che Dail]

11 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

Change needs to be led, not left to be manipulated by parties with vested interest.

No, change absolutely needs to be led by those with a vested interest, i.e. by the clubs themselves, the ones who stand to gain the most by initiating it: YOU

The EoS and LL office bearers and officials are mostly made up of club leaders.

You have to find a way to get together with like-minded clubs and start to map it out. 

It might seem like a leap of faith, but it's not - the EoS has shown how to make it work. 

There is a support network of east clubs and league officials who can provide advice and encouragement - but it needs to be initiated individually (and then collectively) by your clubs.

Only need 9 more to come forward and you're started.

[Burnie_man]

7 minutes ago, Dev said:

My reading of all this is that the SJFA has thrown in the towel about participating in the Pyramid.

This clears the way for the missing WoS league to be set up with no cause for recriminations by any association or club.

It also voluntarily cuts the SJFA out of any Pyramid discussions within the next few seasons. Never been a better time to invite expressions of interest from clubs in a new WoS league.

It's about making things happen so this clears the way!

What I don't understand is why would there be any recriminations against west clubs for talking about this? 

We're always told TJ is just a paid employee and acts at the behest of clubs (yes I'm aware of his threat to Clydebank), but he can't do diddly squat, no rule breaking is involved and the rest involved in running the SJFA are club committee people anyway. Always a puzzling one.

[Arthurlie1981]

No, change absolutely needs to be led by those with a vested interest, i.e. by the clubs themselves, the ones who stand to gain the most by initiating it: YOU
The EoS and LL office bearers and officials are mostly made up of club leaders.
You have to find a way to get together with like-minded clubs and start to map it out. 
It might seem like a leap of faith, but it's not - the EoS has shown how to make it work. 
There is a support network of east clubs and league officials who can provide advice and encouragement - but it needs to be initiated individually (and then collectively) by your clubs.
Only need 9 more to come forward and you're started.

Sorry I should have said a vested interest in the status quo.

I disagree it was a leap of faith in the East. The clubs were moving to an established league with all the big guns moving. That made things easier. If that happened in the west then great and it will work but we are waiting to see who makes the first move.

[glensmad]

What I don't understand is why would there be any recriminations against west clubs for talking about this? 
We're always told TJ is just a paid employee and acts at the behest of clubs (yes I'm aware of his threat to Clydebank), but he can't do diddly squat, no rule breaking is involved and the rest involved in running the SJFA are club committee people anyway. Always a puzzling one.

I think in the West historically there was a perception (perhaps unfairly, perhaps not) that the former General Secretary could make things awkward for a club if they didn't toe the line. That person is no longer a factor though, after the events of two weeks ago.

I do not believe for one second that any of the current West Region management committee would treat a member club any differently for expressing an interest in joining a potential tier 6 league, while still competing in the juniors set-up until such times as the tier 6 league is established. Clydebank have never hidden their desire of recent years to make such a move, yet their match secretary is also the current President of the West Region, so there cannot possibly be any hostility towards other clubs who may wish to do likewise if such a league becomes officially available.

[Arthurlie1981]

What I don't understand is why would there be any recriminations against west clubs for talking about this? 
We're always told TJ is just a paid employee and acts at the behest of clubs (yes I'm aware of his threat to Clydebank), but he can't do diddly squat, no rule breaking is involved and the rest involved in running the SJFA are club committee people anyway. Always a puzzling one.

From my experience it’s not been from the SJFA, I have heard it said by other clubs and officials at region meetings.

Will be interesting to see if any club comes out and publicly states that they are wanting to move for next season to a new WOSFL as that might start the domino effect as it did in the east. Need to wait and see.

[FairWeatherFan]

I think in the wake of all this the West clubs that geuninely have an interest in joining the pyramid are going to have to speak up. We saw clubs in action with the Scott Robertson complaints. Mainly behind the scenes sending emails to the region and SJFA. There's now got to be something similar.

People talk about leadership. I'm afraid the first person that should take the lead in this instance is Matt Bamford the President of the West Region and Clydebank representative. His club voted to go senior. His region voted to join the pyramid. He's got to hold the SJFA to account for their version of events and see if the Region wants to breakaway or remain.

Edited January 29, 2020 by FairWeatherFan

[Bluenortherner]

From my experience it’s not been from the SJFA, I have heard it said by other clubs and officials at region meetings.

Will be interesting to see if any club comes out and publicly states that they are wanting to move for next season to a new WOSFL as that might start the domino effect as it did in the east. Need to wait and see.

I am certain Burnie_man will know the west teams that would jump!

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, Bluenortherner said:

I am certain Burnie_man will know the west teams that would jump!

Burnie_man doesn't I'm afraid.

[Che Dail]

15 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

I disagree it was a leap of faith in the East. The clubs were moving to an established league with all the big guns moving. That made things easier. If that happened in the west then great and it will work but we are waiting to see who makes the first move.
 

 

I didn't quite say it was a leap of faith in the east.

It is a different situation, but my point is that the clubs who did move (with Kelty leading the way) have proved that it was a good decision and the right thing to do.

There isn't a lot if time to wait for somebody else to make a move - another season of inaction will come and go quickly.

 

 

[ShrimpLok]

Lowland League should make clear that there will be a guaranteed destination for all West clubs who express an interest. 
 

Option 1: LL2 

Advise that this will happen at a minimum and if 1-8 clubs from the West wish to join the Pyramid they will be guaranteed entry to a 16 team Tier 6 league with the balance of 8-15 clubs drawn from the East of Scotland.
 

Option 2: LL2 East and West

If 9-16 clubs from the West wish to join the pyramid then guarantee that Tier 6 will be split into LL2 East and West even if the West League is initially undersized. 
 

Option 3: LL2 West and WOS League

If 17+ clubs from the West wish to join the pyramid then a LL2 West and a feeder WOS league at Tier 7 will be established with exact numbers in each league to be determined. 
 

If that set of proposals were put forward then it gives a viable pyramid destination for West region clubs whether it is just one club joining or if there are 30+ clubs who want to join.

Edited January 29, 2020 by ShrimpLok

[Che Dail]

8 minutes ago, ShrimpLok said:

Lowland League should make clear that there will be a guaranteed destination for all West clubs who express an interest. 
 

Option 1: LL2 

Advise that this will happen at a minimum and if 1-8 clubs from the West wish to join the Pyramid they will be guaranteed entry to a 16 team Tier 6 league with the balance of 8-15 clubs drawn from the East of Scotland.
 

Option 2: LL2 East and West

If 9-16 clubs from the West wish to join the pyramid then guarantee that Tier 6 will be split into LL2 East and West even if the West League is initially undersized. 
 

Option 3: LL2 West and WOS League

If 17+ clubs from the West wish to join the pyramid then a LL2 West and a feeder WOS league at Tier 7 will be established with exact numbers in each league to be determined. 
 

If that set of proposals were put forward then it gives a viable pyramid destination for West region clubs whether it is just one club joining or if there are 30+ clubs who want to join.

At this point could the destination just be the Lowland League?   And vice-versa for relegation into a WoS.

Keep it simple initially to reflect the structure in the EoS / SoS.  In time when the league is established and  there are enough licensed clubs they can look at splitting it East / West.

[San Starko Rover]

No surprise really TJ all in or none except the North who he’s conveniently forgotten now says no one is interested in a WOS league. I’ll bet he said the same about the EOS league too before the exodus. Has he canvassed the clubs to form this opinion. Self interest of the highest order. I’ll be surprised if we don’t see another exodus in the East now.

It’s now up to the West Juniors to show who is interested all they need is 10 teams to get a WOSFL started, I’m pretty sure out of the entire West there must be 10 teams who’d be interested from the West Juniors, Amateurs and even the likes of Bonnyton from the SOSFL. Get it started and you’ll end up with the same flow of teams the East has seen.

All TJ is doing is delaying the inevitable.

[Robert James]

2 hours ago, BTID said:

Wait hold on didn’t we apply for deferred membership of the *east of scotland* league never mind a much more convenient west league. If that’s not showing an interest what is???
 

It’s well known across junior football our membership would vote for a move to a wosl, we really need other clubs to put their heads up now *if* there is as much interest as is suggested. We can’t just do it on our own. 
 

Scunnered but not surprised at the outcome. Fed up with all the politics. Hope there is another east exodus this summer just to weaken the juniors hand even more. Will deserve everything they get.

If the EoSL acted as the (temporary) focal point, and  advertised/invited clubs to join a new West 'senior' league, their applications would be confidential, as their names would not be published.   However, if not enough West clubs applied, the newly proposed league wouldn't be viable for 2020/21. Even so, it is my view (based on previous years' applications to "go senior"), the EoSL would not release the names of these clubs. Neither would the club(s) concerned, need to make any official announcement that they had applied, unless or until they were invited to join the  new league.

Yes, there would be rumours/speculation, about which clubs might have applied, but what sanctions could the SJFA apply, based solely on rumours as to who these applicants may be. 

For example, could the SJFA expel these  clubs ?   Could they relegate them ?  Could they fine them ?  Remember, the SJFA didn't apply any sanctions against the 4 junior clubs, when they successfully applied to join the Highland League (Inverurie, Formartine,  Turriff, & Strathspey) ? Or against Kelty, or Dunipace, or Dalkeith, or the other East juniors who applied to join the EoSL ?  Threats maybe ? Actions none.

Could the SJFA require clubs resigning from its membership, to give a year's notice of leaving ? Maybe, although it was threatened previously, and wasn't actioned.

IF the SJFA did try to apply any severe sanctions, it could risk a legal challenge from the clubs concerned.   Even more significantly, there would probably be an adverse reaction be from other junior clubs (remaining within the WRJFA), as the SJFA's punitive actions could also be applied to their own club, if in the future they dared to consider applying to join a senior pyramid league ? 

Also what about the media's reaction ? Such action by the SJFA could  be widely criticised, and viewed as 'contravening the spirit of the game'. 

Personally, I don't think the SJFA would take any such punitive action against its' West clubs. It would be a risky strategy for the Junior Association to  embark upon in my opinion, and it could well rebound upon them.    I may of course, be wrong !

Finally, it is suggested by other posters on this forum, that at least ten junior clubs may apply to join the WoSL, in which event the above risks can be ignored.

[Black Pennel]

In other words...more of the panty-wetting hysteria...as the other chap predicted would happen. Why don't you just wait and see what transpires ? There appears to be global, international, continental, and national problems arising at the moment but you boys & girls are squealing about non-league fitba. Get a grip.

[Ross.]

Is it possible that Petrie/SFA have stitched up TJ with option Z being proposed and out across as a preferred option? Juniors back that but the powers that be elsewhere know it will get rejected by the rest, creating the current situation which pushes the SJFA out of the decision making process from this point on?