Catalonia

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Can never have a majority based on 80% of a 57% turnout.

You misunderstand - I am saying if turnout was at 80% then Yes are likely to still have a majority without winning many more votes than they had.

[AUFC90]

You misunderstand - I am saying if turnout was at 80% then Yes are likely to still have a majority without winning many more votes than they had.

Ahh right.....fair enough.

[Big Fifer]

Belter from the Catalonians. Should be interesting watching this one unfold over the next few days.

[BallochSonsFan]

El Pais were reporting the breakdown of voter turnout in individual municipal areas. Highest reported vote in favour of independence was 321% of the electorate.

That's some going - the people were so passionate about independence that they voted 3 times to show how much they cared.

The whole thing has been a monumental mess.

[Antiochas III]

El Pais, a Pro-Madrid paper claiming vote rigging.  Who'd had thought it.  

[DiegoDiego]

I don't particularly have sympathy with either side on this one. Madrid is acting atrociously and 38% of registered voters is a very shaky mandate for a UDI. Also, I think folk have a bit too much of an underdog image of Catalonia or are projecting their Scottish wishes on them. The Catalans have far from a clean record.

Unfortunately, the timing of the votes means that the 62% of registered voters who said Yes in Kurdistan (93% yes, 73% turnout) has been overshadowed and largely ignored in Europe.

Edited October 4, 2017 by DiegoDiego

[BallochSonsFan]

53 minutes ago, Antiochas III said:

El Pais, a Pro-Madrid paper claiming vote rigging.  Who'd had thought it.  

That doesn't make the numbers any less true. Or undermine their basis for a UDI.

It highlights how utterly shambolic the whole process was. The Spanish authorities handled things exceptionally poorly and their actions will have done nothing but fan the flames of Calatan independence. That said, claiming a mandate to declare UDI following such a clearly flawed set of results isn't justifiable.

I'd give the Catalan government a maximum of 3 months following UDI before it stopped being able to pay pensions and public sector wages and for it to feel the effects of businesses leaving.

[paul-r-cfc]

Does Barcelona have a Standard Life branch? Someone ought to warn them

[Antiochas III]

53 minutes ago, BallochSonsFan said:

That doesn't make the numbers any less true. Or undermine their basis for a UDI.

Doesn't make the numbers true at all.  El Pais also claimed the violance by the Civil Guard was retaliation on attacks by Sepratists.  Granted, they stop short of calling them rebels or terrorists.  

[sparky88]

1 hour ago, BallochSonsFan said:

That doesn't make the numbers any less true. Or undermine their basis for a UDI.

It highlights how utterly shambolic the whole process was. The Spanish authorities handled things exceptionally poorly and their actions will have done nothing but fan the flames of Calatan independence. That said, claiming a mandate to declare UDI following such a clearly flawed set of results isn't justifiable.

I'd give the Catalan government a maximum of 3 months following UDI before it stopped being able to pay pensions and public sector wages and for it to feel the effects of businesses leaving.

Declaring UDI at this stage would itself undermine their claim for independence, the negative consequences of which would kill the movement stone dead when they go back to the Spanish government with their tail between their legs when they can't get credit, for example. 

[Dunning1874]

2 hours ago, DiegoDiego said:

Unfortunately, the timing of the votes means that the 62% of registered voters who said Yes in Kurdistan (93% yes, 73% turnout) has been overshadowed and largely ignored in Europe.

It is unfortunate that the Kurds aren't getting more attention, particularly in light of the lack of support they're receiving from anywhere while every power in the region sabre rattles and threatens them, shouting about causing regional instability when it was Kurdish armed forces who did more than anyone else to drive Daesh out and restore stability to the region.

However, I think there's probably less attention as although they declared the referendum illegitimate and said they wouldn't recognise the vote, the Iraqi government didn't send riot police into Kirkuk to beat the shit out of anyone trying to vote then shout about how they were defending democracy. Their actions post-vote to try to topple the Kurdish government in trying to seize the airports and form an economic blockade are still wholly deserving of criticism, but it's a telling contrast with Spain that not sending the police in to stop anyone voting in favour of just denying the legitimacy has led to far less scrutiny on Baghdad.

The Spanish Government - officially less competent and more authoritarian than Iraq

 

[John Lambies Doos]

Declaring UDI at this stage would itself undermine their claim for independence, the negative consequences of which would kill the movement stone dead when they go back to the Spanish government with their tail between their legs when they can't get credit, for example. 

Have to disagree with this tbh. You could have said that about any previous country/region who have declared independence. I wouldn't underestimate a movements resolve and it's ability to resolve

[welshbairn]

8 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

It is unfortunate that the Kurds aren't getting more attention, particularly in light of the lack of support they're receiving from anywhere while every power in the region sabre rattles and threatens them, shouting about causing regional instability when it was Kurdish armed forces who did more than anyone else to drive Daesh out and restore stability to the region.

However, I think there's probably less attention as although they declared the referendum illegitimate and said they wouldn't recognise the vote, the Iraqi government didn't send riot police into Kirkuk to beat the shit out of anyone trying to vote then shout about how they were defending democracy. Their actions post-vote to try to topple the Kurdish government in trying to seize the airports and form an economic blockade are still wholly deserving of criticism, but it's a telling contrast with Spain that not sending the police in to stop anyone voting in favour of just denying the legitimacy has led to far less scrutiny on Baghdad.

The Spanish Government - officially less competent and more authoritarian than Iraq

 

The Kurdish army control Kirkuk, it would have been the Iraqi police who were beaten shitless.

[Dunning1874]

You do wonder if Puigdemont is just saying they'll go for UDI in days to pressure Rajoy to come to the negotiating table before they go ahead with the hope of getting a legal referendum out of it, but if that is the strategy it's extremely high risk, with the prospect that Rajoy doesn't bite. Of course if Rajoy does invoke Article 155, which gives Madrid direct control of Catalonia, before a UDI declaration is made - as the leader of Ciudadanos is encouraging him to do - that plays right into Puigdemont's hands again and can only increase and entrench support for independence.

[Mark Connolly]

Has anyone pointed out to Ruth Davidson that this is what a "divisive referendum" looks like?

[topcat(The most tip top)]

5 hours ago, BallochSonsFan said:

El Pais were reporting the breakdown of voter turnout in individual municipal areas. Highest reported vote in favour of independence was 321% of the electorate.

That's some going - the people were so passionate about independence that they voted 3 times to show how much they cared.

The whole thing has been a monumental mess.

 

People from municipalities where the police had shut the polling station were allowed to cast their vote in a different municipality which would explain turnouts in excess of 100%
 

 

Edited October 4, 2017 by topcat(The most tip top)

[Lex]

To quote Nigel Farage:

"I've called the EU undemocratic, I've called it anti-democratic but never ever, in my fiercest criticisms here did I think we would see the police of a Member State of the Union injuring 900 people in an attempt to stop them from going out to vote!

"And what do we get from Mr Juncker today? Not a dicky bird! It is quite extraordinary to realise that this Union is prepared to turn a blind eye!"

Some boy. Thank goodness we are leaving that white elephant of a union.

[Colkitto]

21 minutes ago, Lex said:

To quote Nigel Farage:

"I've called the EU undemocratic, I've called it anti-democratic but never ever, in my fiercest criticisms here did I think we would see the police of a Member State of the Union injuring 900 people in an attempt to stop them from going out to vote!

"And what do we get from Mr Juncker today? Not a dicky bird! It is quite extraordinary to realise that this Union is prepared to turn a blind eye!"

Some boy. Thank goodness we are leaving that white elephant of a union.

Not a fan of Farage but he's right to call out Junker and the EU, although the UK have turned a blind eye too. Not seen the full quote, does he mention that too?

I'm in favour of Scotland remaining in the EU, but the response over this has made me reconsider. I'm still not in the leave camp but this is a big test for the EU and come to think of it the UN 

[Granny Danger]

34 minutes ago, Colkitto said:

Not a fan of Farage but he's right to call out Junker and the EU, although the UK have turned a blind eye too. Not seen the full quote, does he mention that too?

I'm in favour of Scotland remaining in the EU, but the response over this has made me reconsider. I'm still not in the leave camp but this is a big test for the EU and come to think of it the UN 

Farage is a w****r.  A single statement made to serve his agenda doesn't change that fact.

To put it in perspective even I make a statement that folk agree with occasionally. 

[topcat(The most tip top)]

To put it in perspective even I make a statement that folk agree with occasionally. 

No you don't