happyaccie Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 12 minutes ago, Bazil85 said: A summary of all the Cons and Pros that I can muster so far... Basically get this idea in the sea. Cons Turns L1 and L2 into development leagues at the detriment of competition Fans of these clubs overwhelmingly against it No sporting integrity in them getting parachuted into L2 and exempt from relegation Finance being offered can only be described as a bribe On the back of previous point, extra money only secured for two years. If withdrawn after that time clubs could be worse off if fans don't return (as many have stated they'll stop attending games if this goes through). Massive risk to take Proposal details says this would be good for Scottish youth development, but no obligation to play any Scottish players so can't back that claim up 10/12 team leagues not designed for Colts, could have a team finishing 6th out of 12 gaining promotion Current quality of Colts are nowhere near good enough as shown in Challenge Cup Challenge Cup also evidence that crowds will go down and little interest from OF fans Scotland require to develop players that are good enough to get us to World Cup and European finals on a regular basis. There is no evidence that 19/20 year olds playing against part-time footballers that train two/ three days a week will develop into this level of quality player Loan market to L1 & L2 clubs from the OF and other larger teams (if they also enter Colts) will dry up Championship and lower level SP teams may lose promising young players that they loan out to L1 and L2 as the OF Colts will have to strengthen their youth teams. St Mirren as an example, at some point this season we've had six promising youngsters on loan to L1/ L2 teams. Players who's heads could easily be turned by more money at OF and same match experience at the Colts Proposal explicitly details that it would generate more fan excitement, this is completely false based on feedback and clearly shows they haven't evidence gathered Explicitly references Dutch league as a success for B teams. They've only had them in league structure for roughly five years, a historically poor time in the Dutch football teams history Directly against fan survey result where 74% of fans said they'd be against this Further strengthen the position that SPFL & SFA are only interested in furthering the agenda of two teams and in no way care what fans think Pros May result in a short-term financial benefit (again can only be described as bribe money) Benefit to Rangers and Celtic (and if other big teams do it after the pilot) in developing their own youth players in a competitive environment. Again this would only benefit these teams as no evidence the players will end up major international tournament quality. Excellent summary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
senorsoupe Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 8 minutes ago, happyaccie said: How predictable is that answer, criticising the other cheek, I'm not defending sevco but McCrorie, Wilson & Bates all come through the youth programme at sevco , your overwhelming urge to belittle sevco on this occasion has come back and bit you on your arse, that aside with the resources you have in relation to the other clubs mentioned, to only have less or equal amounts of development players playing first team football suggests that Sellicks youth programme falls well behind the clubs I mentioned in relative terms. I'm not saying that Celtic can't do better in terms of developing younger players, but your initial reaction to just assume that OF team's don't give any academy players a chance (when a lot of other teams are worse than Celtic are) is just as predictable as me taking a dig at Sevco. Also just to fact check you again, David Bates was a product of Raith's academy, not Sevco's. Also for the record I don't think that having our colt team in League Two is a good idea, firstly it's obvious that fans of existing teams are against it so their will should be respected, secondly I don't think it will be an effective way for Celtic to develop players to reach our first team level an thirdly it will distort the landscape of the SPFL. I would much rather see money being invested in youth coaching at lower level SPFL teams so that teams can develop their players better and Premiership team players that go on loan can get a better standard of coaching Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Starko Rover Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 How predictable is that answer, criticising the other cheek, I'm not defending sevco but McCrorie, Wilson & Bates all come through the youth programme at sevco , your overwhelming urge to belittle sevco on this occasion has come back and bit you on your arse, that aside with the resources you have in relation to the other clubs mentioned, to only have less or equal amounts of development players playing first team football suggests that Sellicks youth programme falls well behind the clubs I mentioned in relative terms. Bates came from Raith Rovers last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romeo Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 @happyaccie sticking up for sevco yet again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyaccie Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 15 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said: Bates came from Raith Rovers last season. I stand corrected as sevco are irrelevant in my life I presumed with bates being 19 he was a product of sevco's youth programme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Starko Rover Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 I stand corrected as sevco are irrelevant in my life I presumed with bates being 19 he was a product of sevco's youth programme. Our board got a bag of magic beans and the mystery box for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyaccie Posted January 26, 2018 Author Share Posted January 26, 2018 1 hour ago, senorsoupe said: I'm not saying that Celtic can't do better in terms of developing younger players, but your initial reaction to just assume that OF team's don't give any academy players a chance (when a lot of other teams are worse than Celtic are) is just as predictable as me taking a dig at Sevco. Also just to fact check you again, David Bates was a product of Raith's academy, not Sevco's. Also for the record I don't think that having our colt team in League Two is a good idea, firstly it's obvious that fans of existing teams are against it so their will should be respected, secondly I don't think it will be an effective way for Celtic to develop players to reach our first team level an thirdly it will distort the landscape of the SPFL. I would much rather see money being invested in youth coaching at lower level SPFL teams so that teams can develop their players better and Premiership team players that go on loan can get a better standard of coaching My personal argument with regard to this is why should any club gain an advantage over other clubs just because they have a sense of entitlement ? Celtic have a massive finance advantage over everybody, I don't have any argument with that, the bulk of the advantage has been gained through sporting achievement (e.g.) qualification for CL group stages. I just feel for the OF to moot this proposal to suit their own personal agendas is unjustified. Scotland with a population under 6 million, is currently trying to support 42 senior clubs, ideally this number should be reduced significantly to allow resources to be centralised into areas to enable the game a better opportunity to flourish. Both parties in the desire to satisfy their personal agendas are now proposing to increase the number of sides in the senior ranks to 44, none of these two member clubs have any real desire to improve the prospects of the national side to qualify for World Cups or Euro Championships, the sole objective of both OF clubs is to be the dominant players within the domestic scene, and if this is to the detriment of our national game their attitude is tough. This is why fans of most other clubs have no respect for the OF, bullying is wrong on every level so is bribery, both OF clubs seem to think both these actions are acceptable to enable them to meet their objectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 2 hours ago, happyaccie said: My personal argument with regard to this is why should any club gain an advantage over other clubs just because they have a sense of entitlement ? Celtic have a massive finance advantage over everybody, I don't have any argument with that, the bulk of the advantage has been gained through sporting achievement (e.g.) qualification for CL group stages. I just feel for the OF to moot this proposal to suit their own personal agendas is unjustified. Scotland with a population under 6 million, is currently trying to support 42 senior clubs, ideally this number should be reduced significantly to allow resources to be centralised into areas to enable the game a better opportunity to flourish. Both parties in the desire to satisfy their personal agendas are now proposing to increase the number of sides in the senior ranks to 44, none of these two member clubs have any real desire to improve the prospects of the national side to qualify for World Cups or Euro Championships, the sole objective of both OF clubs is to be the dominant players within the domestic scene, and if this is to the detriment of our national game their attitude is tough. This is why fans of most other clubs have no respect for the OF, bullying is wrong on every level so is bribery, both OF clubs seem to think both these actions are acceptable to enable them to meet their objectives. The scale of the advantages they have is not remotely in-keeping with the scale of any 'achievements'. Indeed, such grotesque, distorting rewards as they get for them are self replicating. If you've any interest in sport, you absolutely should have an argument with it. Your stuff about the existing number of clubs in the set up needing reduced is also received pish that withstands no scrutiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnold Layne Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 2 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said: The scale of the advantages they have is not remotely in-keeping with the scale of any 'achievements'. Indeed, such grotesque, distorting rewards as they get for them are self replicating. If you've any interest in sport, you absolutely should have an argument with it. Your stuff about the existing number of clubs in the set up needing reduced is also received pish that withstands no scrutiny. I believe that the league system should be restructured to two larger leagues (the proposed colts thing would be a bar to this) with a proper pyramid structure below this. Someone on here (Jagfox?) mentioned the Belgian system. Interesting to compare the systems Belgium Scotland While Scotland has 113 teams, the Belgian pyramid comprises 1800 (approx!) teams. Eighteen hundred teams that all have, as a right, the chance to move up through the system. Rather than tinkering with bits of the league while trying to benefit two member clubs, the SFA/SPFL need to get a grip on the game nationally and be more inclusive. My aforementioned desire to have two larger leagues would involve 32/36 teams but with a proper pyramid in place, I would not see this as a cull or 'reducing the number of clubs'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountyFan Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 5 hours ago, happyaccie said: This is exactly what should be addressed , these two clubs are a very good example, they have a huge catchment area and can attract talented youngsters into the clubs, rather than import lower level league English players or overseas players.All clubs have the right to implement their own business model, but all should be made aware of their responsibility to the future health of the game. At the risk of derailing this excellent thread, your own club currently has four Greeks, four englishmen, a Cypriot, a Frenchman, and Argentine and and Italian under contract according to Wikipedia. Not sure youre in a position to criticise county and Caley signing policies based on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 5 hours ago, senorsoupe said: Hamilton and Hearts (only recently) are an exception but a quick glance at the squads for Kilmarnock and Motherwell's last games show that they started two academy grads each. Depending on the definition of home-grown I am sure Celtic would adapt. It's Rangers who would have a bigger problem given that they have pretty much no academy grads in their team ^^^It's no' us, it's them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 5 hours ago, happyaccie said: This is exactly what should be addressed , these two clubs are a very good example, they have a huge catchment area and can attract talented youngsters into the clubs, rather than import lower level league English players or overseas players.All clubs have the right to implement their own business model, but all should be made aware of their responsibility to the future health of the game. The catchment area for both clubs is one of the least densely populated areas in Europe. That presents its own challenges. There's been a number of players come through the ranks at ICT and County over the years. Most of them end up at Elgin or in the Highland League precisely because they aren't good enough. The talented players at both sides have made the cut, there's been very few 'ones that got away' for either club. County could do more, and they are taking steps in the right direction. But good coaching and facilities only gets you so far. This idea that there's a gold mine of untapped talent just waiting to be coached to glory is nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jute Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Cannot see how this plan benefits the other teams in the league at all especially the teams in league 2. Yet another plan promoted by the SFA for the good of only 2 of their members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wastecoatwilly Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 14 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said: Still not an answer in any meaningful sense. You're making a giant leap to say that the step of including colt sides in the Challenge Cup and then two of them in the bottom division, will "improve Scottish football" without once explaining how. Of course a food chain of sorts exists in that there is vast disparity in resources, but again, what's your point in regard to that, in this context? It looks to me like you're someone who experiences very few thoughts, yet somehow reaches firm opinions. Your inability to support the one you've expressed here, could be no more evident. Lets turn it on it's head what do league 2 clubs do for Scottish football? How is Joe Thomson doing in the Queens team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 7 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said: Lets turn it on it's head what do league 2 clubs do for Scottish football? How is Joe Thomson doing in the Queens team? They provide nationwide competition in the national sport in varied corners of the country, thus serving their communities in ways too few appreciate. By their very existences, they contribute to Scottish football by being constituent parts of it. What would you like them to contribute? I'll take your second inquiry at face value: Joe Thomson has been doing fine. Our midfield needed some legs and he provides that, but he's less well equipped to offer the finesse we also lack in there. He's not yet had the impact he had this time last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 12 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said: Lets turn it on it's head what do league 2 clubs do for Scottish football? The division allows an outlet for promotion and relegation. This impacts the other divisions, creating competition. Competitive football drives improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenrothes 1884 saint Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 They bring an enjoyment and sense of belonging to all their supporters,whom almost without fail are locals,whilst the two bigot brothers supporters travel from all 4 corners of the country,basically because they’ve had a 50/50 chance of glory for years. I’ve never once felt shame at an away ground in any of the lower leagues,whilst listening to the two cheeks at Perth or away fills me with it,problem is,you’re all so blind you can’t see it,it’s always them,not us,from both of you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeSAFC Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 Lets turn it on it's head what do league 2 clubs do for Scottish football? What do Celtic do for Scottish football? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gannonball Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 2 minutes ago, JakeSAFC said: What do Celtic do for Scottish football? Provide a load of players for the national team? Gain league coefficient points and money for the top league? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted January 26, 2018 Share Posted January 26, 2018 1 minute ago, gannonball said: Provide a load of players for the national team? Gain league coefficient points and money for the top league? Sorry your worship, we means well, but we's just simple farmers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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