Germany and the Nazis

[Raven]

9 minutes ago, Fullerene said:

 

There were a few on the western front.  Ronald Reagan went to visit one in Bitsburg.   Resulting in an excellent single by the Ramones.

Saw that on TV. Found it bothersome.

[eez-eh]

6 hours ago, Newbornbairn said:

 

The building was a power station built to power the lights at the Nuremburg rallies. 

Looks like something from Man in the High Castle.

[deegee]

I too am fascinated by WW2 and have been to Arnhem, Bastogne and hope to visit Normandy soon. What I found on a visit to Krakow was how sectarian many parts of the Nazi armies were, due to large divisions of recruited East Europeans. At the Jewish Museum, most references of atrocities seemed to have been carried out by Ukrainian, Hungarian and Yugoslav Nazi armies. Much like the Yugoslav Wars in the 1990s, you don’t need to scratch too deep to open up racial and ethnic tensions.

Back to the Germans, I found Berlin fascinating but like all of Europe, the wars, revolutions, invasions etc stretch back far before 1939 and WW2 was probably the ultimate conclusion of many divisions in one sense, although the years that followed set the tone for the next 45 years of the Cold War.

There is a stark crossover; an embedded USAAF unexplored  bomb next to church that had sat at the Berlin Wall and literally between Russian and Allied Sectors in the Cold War.

https://apnews.com/article/a99971608b74ab109320434f7871138a

The Soviets blew up the church as a gesture and for no other reason to show the Allies that could and would, using security measures as an excuse for 1980s destruction.. It is rebuilt now and is at the only remaining part of the Berlin Wall and illustrates the last century perfectly.

I suspect the Germans will be more comfortable reflecting and discussing WW2 and the Nazis more now as there are several generations and 75+ years lapsed, therefore shoulder less the burden of guilt. Much like in our own little local “Troubles”, communities in Northern Ireland and especially the young folk look back on the 1970s and following 30 years as another time and many of the key people are now dead or on their last legs on all sides.

[speckled tangerine]

I went on school exchange trips in the late 80s to West Germany (as was) and the families discussed the war stories in a quite open way. My mum had a penfriend in the 60s (a reconciliation initiative) that we visited and vice versa. She was a primary school headteacher and her husband an engineer. 

When we visited Monika and Rolf I was slightly taken aback when he had his Iron Cross framed in his room in the basement along with the most realistic (and enormous) model railway I'd ever seen. He was conscripted into the wehrmacht as a boy soldier at 17 in 1944 onto the collapsing eastern front. He was shot, invalided out and ended up in the GDR before jumping the border in the mid 50s. He was a really interesting man.

Later, I did 6 months in Cologne as an exchange at Uni. Once folk know you they open up and tell you the stories. The amount of old (and generally dead) family members who did questionable things was remarkable, but most of the stories from Cologne were about bombing, survival and how on earth this happened in the first place? They weren't proud but didn't shy away either.

They quite enjoyed "Allo Allo", which features German language versions of clichéd accents.......

Bizarre.

[Priti priti priti Patel]

3 hours ago, Alert Mongoose said:

Anyone done the one about their great grandfather dying after falling from the watchtower?

 

1 hour ago, Scary Bear said:

My Grandad died in a concentration  camp.

 

Someone land on him? 

Edited October 29, 2021 by Priti priti priti Patel

[Sugar_Army]

4 hours ago, Priti priti priti Patel said:

 

 

Someone land on him? 

I actually got caught out with that one from a German friend when I was at uni. 

When doing politics and history at uni one of the subjects was the 30 Years War.  During that time, what is now Germany was decimated by armies crossing back and forth as well as the famine/disease that accompanied it.  Estimates range from 30-50 percent of its population were lost. It was a big thing. So much so that the Nazis used it as propaganda.  The prof mentioned how for a long time after the war and until quite recently (1990s) it was not really taught in German schools for fear the far right would latch onto it again.  I asked my German classmate  if it was true, she replied that it was the first time she had ever had a discussion on the 30 Years War in an academic setting!

While it was not my focus at uni, I do have a bit of interest in the Third Reich era, got quite a few books and I am a sucker for even the most fanciful documentary.  I have done quite a bit of Berlin and visited Wansee.  Also visited Belsen and Dresden and a few other areas around Germany

Mrs SA is Polish so have done a lot of places over there ranging from Auschwitz and Krakow (and salt mines) to places such as a Pawiak in Warsaw.  You literally trip over old WW2 stuff such as camps, military or middle bunkers etc so I am like a big kid.  I have also done stuff in Budapest (Horthy related) and Prague (Heydrich related).

Couple of things to show generational attitudes from a Polish perspective. 

Her grandfather is 90 (his actual name's is Adolf (honestly) but is known as Adek).  We get on great despite the language barrier.  He was a colonel in Polish army.  Cracking guy.  But two areas you cannot talk to him about are the war and the communist period.

She says that he never knew his father but they suspect he might have been a German soldier who later died during the war.  He was brought up was the German/Polish border which due to history had a lot of ethnic Germans, after the ware there were a lot of anti-German persecutions there.. He even remembers seeing the build up of German military in his area prior to the war starting.  He ended up orphaned and was forced to learn German (that is how we communicate) while growing up on a farm where apparently they were cruel to him, so I can understand why he might not want to discuss it 

The other no go area is what he did in the army.  He is the archetypal communist military man with medals coming out his ears.  He literally had two carrier bags full of them in his cupboard. What he got them for I have no idea. Judging by Polish history he was probably involved in repressing anti communist actions which nowadays are seen by most Poles as not a good thing. 

It is kinda funny in a way as he is very likeable and loved while the grandfather on the other side was seen as a bit of a chunt yet was heavily involved in Solidarity and spent time in jail on the back of this. 

I love the stories about when Mrs SA 's mother was dating her father and she and her parents would visit his parents, the Solidarity grandad would refuse to get out of bed while the Colonel was in the house.  Even if it was mid afternoon.

In fairness to her Colonel grandfather, he openly admits that looking back, while communism was bad, you have to remember the influences at play for him (aged 1-34 his life would have comprised of Hitler, Stalin and Krushchev) and the military presented him opportunities he would never have got considering his early upbringing. The system set up for old soldiers also looks after him well today , unlike here.

I would love to know his thoughts on all of this and the changes, as the guy has embraced the fall of communism.  I have mentioned to him that while he was in charge of his Warsaw pact troops all over the communist bloc, my brother was based in the Black Watch then the Gordon's in Germany at the same time yet here I am in a relationship with his grand daughter.

But the younger family appear to have a different view.  They see that what the Germans did as awful and while you cannot ignore it or agree with it, it was done during the act of war over a 6 year period where terrible things are bound to happen.

The Russians on the other hand, systematically dismantled a country and its populace and manipulated it for their own benefit over a period of 50 years.  That they say is harder to ignore, especially as it still impacts on them today.  You only need to look at the ruling party to see this.

One thing that is not really openly discussed though is exactly how involved some Poles were in relation to facilitating the Holocaust and helping oil the wheels of communism.  Coersion or willing partners? While her family discussed as, I am well aware it is not really something I should bring up unless I know the person or get the heads up it is ok to do so.

Something that was also an issue for many Germans at the end of the war.  Easier to sweep it under the carpet than confront it..add that to war guilt and you can see why so many did not discuss it and still a bit of a taboo subject there. 

Another part of it was that, after the war, those the allies needed to help rebuild and run Germany as a buffer to the Soviet threat, who would have been those most likely  to have been asked to investigate all of that.  These would also be the same people who had originally risen to power and benefitted from the Nazi regime.  You would almost be investigating yourself, your family, your friends and your peers. Who in their right mind would do that?

Put simply, the allies needed people to run the country after the war,  unfortunately the best people to do that might have had a dubious past (we did the same in many other defeated countries after WW2). 

Strangely enough, as bad a taste it might leave in the mouth, had we done something similar in Iraq, then it might not be the shitshow it is today.

But the short answer is...no Germans do not really feel comfortable discussing it

 

 

Edited October 30, 2021 by Sugar_Army

[The_Kincardine]

Deutsche Welle (DW) is a brilliant news channel on Y'tube - much better than any BBC equivalent - and Rachel Stewart's 'Meet the Germans' series is thoroughly enjoyable.

Here's her take on the subject:

 

[stevieKTID]

17 hours ago, Lofarl said:

I love visiting stuff to do with WW2.  I guess growing up in a military household will do that.  I’ve been to Arnhem, Nuremberg, Munich, Berlin etc.  The coolest place is the eagles nest.  Hitlers home is just below it.  All that’s left is a retaining wall and some rubble.  But going into a mountain then up a lift is some Bond villain stuff.  Nice wee tea house.  When I was in Bangkok I had intended  to visit the bridge over the river Kwai.  But I got totally howling the night before.

I visited the Eagles nest and the Obersalzberg this year, beautiful scenery hard to get your head around how such evil plans were developed in such amazing surroundings.

I have a mate in Arnhem, I always make a point of going to Oosterbeek for a wander around when I'm down that way.

I also enjoy visiting WW2 sites, there's something about walking in the footsteps of recent history that I find fascinating.

[vikingTON]

7 hours ago, Sugar_Army said:

But the younger family appear to have a different view.  They see that what the Germans did as awful and while you cannot ignore it or agree with it, it was done during the act of war over a 6 year period where terrible things are bound to happen.

The Russians on the other hand, systematically dismantled a country and its populace and manipulated it for their own benefit over a period of 50 years.  That they say is harder to ignore, especially as it still impacts on them today.  You only need to look at the ruling party to see this.

It's certainly interesting to share those perspectives, but the sheer revisionism of this nonsense take should also be pointed out. The war was over for Poland by the end of September 1939 and did not return until the middle of 1944. The vast majority of Nazi atrocities were carried out in between, under the General Government. That was the post-war administration for rump Nazified Poland. It was under the General Government that the death camps were built and the Warsaw ghetto was cleared: neither of which had anything even remotely to do with wartime considerations, because the war was thousands of miles away at Stalingrad and Kursk. The delusion that somehow Poland would have been a relatively serene place if only the pesky Red Army hadn't systematically bodied Nazi Germany into the ground is breathtaking.

Never mind trying to blame the big, bad commies for the right-wing authoritarianism, that actually emerged from the Wild West embrace of capitalism and deliberate collapse of social support throughout eastern Europe in the 1990s. 

[BFTD]

12 hours ago, Sugar_Army said:

One thing that is not really openly discussed though is exactly how involved some Poles were in relation to facilitating the Holocaust and helping oil the wheels of communism.  Coersion or willing partners? While her family discussed as, I am well aware it is not really something I should bring up unless I know the person or get the heads up it is ok to do so.

The wife's maternal family were originally from Poland, and most of them died in the camps. One of her great-uncles survived and spent years travelling Europe to track everybody down and try to get the survivors out to America. The ones who survived and settled in America brought their kids up to tell people they were Russian, as they absolutely hated their country of birth; they claimed that the Poles were more than happy to give up the Jews to the Nazis, and that anti-Semitism was rife.

I'd like to think that the racists were just emboldened by the Nazis, that the majority just kept quiet out of fear, and that the same thing would end up happening here in those circumstances, but imagine how much you must have hated a country in 50s/60s America to tell your kids, "if anyone asks, we're Russian".

[supermik]

The Netflix documentary Einsatzgruppen is an interesting watch regarding other nations involved with the SS.

As for the Gestapo, most of it’s members went back to their old jobs after the war, the police force.

[Sermani]

Born into a family that had all seen military action got a bit of interest in the Germans and various wars. Usually on Scotland away trips made a point of having a couple of days extra and visiting Normandy. Arnhem and Nuremburg.

One thing that i've always wanted to know is,  where Rudolph Hess crashed the plane at Eaglesham, is there something there to mark the spot?  Or would a local be able to point it out?  Or to much of a risk it would became a shrine to extremists?

[HeartsOfficialMoaner]

I read the book The Brothers Ashkenazi a long time ago. Jewish people in Poland were not liked before the Nazi's got there as far as remember. 

[welshbairn]

2 hours ago, Sermani said:

Born into a family that had all seen military action got a bit of interest in the Germans and various wars. Usually on Scotland away trips made a point of having a couple of days extra and visiting Normandy. Arnhem and Nuremburg.

One thing that i've always wanted to know is,  where Rudolph Hess crashed the plane at Eaglesham, is there something there to mark the spot?  Or would a local be able to point it out?  Or to much of a risk it would became a shrine to extremists?

I'm sure if you went to a local pub you'd find someone to point out the fields where he landed and his plane crashed, but I don't see why it would be of interest, it's not like his boot prints will still be in the mud. Hitler ordered him shot on sight if he ever managed to show his face again, so I doubt there would be a big queue of neo nazis if you managed to get a blue plaque sorted.

Edited October 30, 2021 by welshbairn

[git-intae-thum]

1 hour ago, Sermani said:

Born into a family that had all seen military action got a bit of interest in the Germans and various wars. Usually on Scotland away trips made a point of having a couple of days extra and visiting Normandy. Arnhem and Nuremburg.

One thing that i've always wanted to know is,  where Rudolph Hess crashed the plane at Eaglesham, is there something there to mark the spot?  Or would a local be able to point it out?  Or to much of a risk it would became a shrine to extremists?

https://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/rudolf-hess-crash-and-capture-sites/view/google/

[tamthebam]

4 hours ago, Sermani said:

Born into a family that had all seen military action got a bit of interest in the Germans and various wars. Usually on Scotland away trips made a point of having a couple of days extra and visiting Normandy. Arnhem and Nuremburg.

One thing that i've always wanted to know is,  where Rudolph Hess crashed the plane at Eaglesham, is there something there to mark the spot?  Or would a local be able to point it out?  Or to much of a risk it would became a shrine to extremists?

The propeller of his plane was and may still be on show at Lennoxlove House near Haddington. It's one of the Duke of Hamilton's gaffes.

[Arthur daley]

On 30/10/2021 at 18:32, Sermani said:

Born into a family that had all seen military action got a bit of interest in the Germans and various wars. Usually on Scotland away trips made a point of having a couple of days extra and visiting Normandy. Arnhem and Nuremburg.

One thing that i've always wanted to know is,  where Rudolph Hess crashed the plane at Eaglesham, is there something there to mark the spot?  Or would a local be able to point it out?  Or to much of a risk it would became a shrine to extremists?

There used to be a stone remembrance many years ago on the farm where he landed ,it was knocked down by anti nazi league including Aamer Anwar, it’s on floors farm at the top next to the “new road “ 

[SlipperyP]

On 30/10/2021 at 01:07, Newbornbairn said:

Isn't it strange that the losing sides in wars don't want to talk about it?

 

Do they mention the war at all in Russia do you think?

The have many memorial sites and statues all over their country. Not sure if it's in their daily conversation, like some folk from the UK.

There is a good   Stalingrad movie (in Russian) on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnJJQxZ0hu8

Edited November 4, 2021 by SlipperyP

[Shotgun]

On 29/10/2021 at 12:07, Newbornbairn said:

Isn't it strange that the losing sides in wars don't want to talk about it?

American friends are often astonished when they hear that British children aren’t taught about the American Revolution in school. It’s such a major part of their history that they can’t understand why it isn’t viewed the same in Britain. 
 

 

[BFTD]

10 minutes ago, Shotgun said:

American friends are often astonished when they hear that British children aren’t taught about the American Revolution in school. It’s such a major part of their history that they can’t understand why it isn’t viewed the same in Britain. 

I'm sure you've noticed the tendency for people to try and banter with you about Britain losing the war of independence. I genuinely had no idea what they were on about at first; not that I wasn't dimly aware that the Americas had once been under British rule, but I knew so little about it that attempts at gentle ribbing flew right over my head. Also, anything the British monarchy/government/army did in the past doesn't feel like it has any connection to me. It'd be like me saying, "remember that time you guys cut down that cherry tree, huh?"

We got taught absolutely hee-haw about America at school, but I've noticed that my son's had a lot of American history (slave trade, civil rights movement, etc).