The Queen of the South thread

[kleinfaethetoon]

It's always puzzled me since I started going to Palmerston as a kid in the seventies as to why Stranraer is our 'derby' game when Ayr, Kilmarnock, Hamilton, Motherwell and now Annan are all closer ? Saying all that the folks from Stranraer dislike Dumfries as we are the 'big' town in the region suppose that's where it comes from lol

[WILLIEA]

6 minutes ago, kleinfaethetoon said:

It's always puzzled me since I started going to Palmerston as a kid in the seventies as to why Stranraer is our 'derby' game when Ayr, Kilmarnock, Hamilton, Motherwell and now Annan are all closer ? Saying all that the folks from Stranraer dislike Dumfries as we are the 'big' town in the region suppose that's where it comes from lol

You're probably right re. Stranraer. Ayr and Killie are rivals. Accies, Motherwell and Airdrie too. I doubt any of them would consider Queens as a derby.

For a comparable club size wise and proximity I suppose Carlisle would fit the bill but for one small problem!!!

FWIW I have always enjoyed playing them in Border Cup. Annan etc.

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, Dougie Mills said:

Unlike Mr X I did see them as a rival and our 4 league games attracted good crowds.  

The final game against them when we won 3-0 at Raydale is one of my favourite ever away games.

I was rather annoyed when they went bust as I'd have loved us to give them 4 gubbings as they inevitably plummeted back down the leagues!

Tend to agree with this. It was very short lived but there was definitely a rivalry with Mileson's Gretna, mostly of their creation. Prior to his arrival they were seen largely as Annan are now, as a smaller local side that most Queens fans were happy to see do well and maybe even went to watch if Queens werent playing. In contrast to Stranraer who were and are traditional rivals though like Grant said, not one I would wish genuine ill to.

Gretna was different. There was genuine hatred of what they became. Their "business model" (dont laugh!) was basically to invade Dumfries and take our fans and future fans. As much as a shyster as Mileson was he wasnt stupid and knew that the only way to grow the Gretna brand was to impinge on our catchment. So he bankrolled a programme whereby Gretna provided free coaching for Dumfries schools, gave hundreds of free tickets to families in Dumfries, sponsored local youth teams and combined with the recruitment of premier standard players, winning every week and sugar coated media coverage all led to a significant attack on our club. I still havent truly forgiven one of my wife's friends who thought it was funny to ask why I didnt "go watch a good team like Gretna" when I came back from some fruitless trip up Scotland to see Queens lose while she and her family had watched the Gretna machine they couldnt have named a player at a year earlier dismantle some other group of innocents on their free schools tickets. Or clowns who threw their lot into following the glory at Gretna and were quick to tell you how much better than Queens they were in the pub. And thats a decade on.

I revelled in their defeats and was almost delighted when the thing collapsed like the house of cards we had said it was all along while the media fawned like sycophants over Mileson and his lending his car to 'Dr Goals' and making donations to Supporters Trust at half the teams they met.

And yet they were undeniably good for us in the long run. The immediate benefit of nabbing Tosh, McQuilken and Macfarlane and ending up in the cup final is obvious, as is the fact that their longest serving player is now our manager, but it was more in the background that long term response was crucial. The club and fans were galvanised. A genuine community programme was instigated that still runs today. We got involved in schools ourselves and rethought our own strategies to address the challenge. It was being met even before they imploded and we are a much bigger and stronger club now with far greater roots in our own community. Gretna are back to being a local club serving their community and one I am happy to see do well, particularly at the moment with four of our players on loan there and the likes of Stuart Rome, Danny Armstrong, Jack Dickinson and Dylan Neill all recently ex Queens too.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Skyline Drifter

[RUSTY1111]

It's always puzzled me since I started going to Palmerston as a kid in the seventies as to why Stranraer is our 'derby' game when Ayr, Kilmarnock, Hamilton, Motherwell and now Annan are all closer ? Saying all that the folks from Stranraer dislike Dumfries as we are the 'big' town in the region suppose that's where it comes from lol

The Stranraer match is the traditional derby for Queens, even though geographically they are 80 miles away, as they would have been the two largest clubs in the region.

Stranraer, formed in 1870 were waiting until Queens were formed in 1919 to have a derby match in the region. I'm not sure if Stranraer ever played vs. Queen of the Wanderers or other such clubs in the intervening years.

[Telboy]

The Stranraer match is the traditional derby for Queens, even though geographically they are 80 miles away, as they would have been the two largest clubs in the region.

Stranraer, formed in 1870 were waiting until Queens were formed in 1919 to have a derby match in the region. I'm not sure if Stranraer ever played vs. Queen of the Wanderers or other such clubs in the intervening years.

Stranraer was and will remain our 'local' derby, as you have suggested, as we are the 2 clubs from the heaviest populated areas within D&G and although we now have Annan in the senior ranks they will never replace Stranraer as our derby 'rivals'.
Without sounding patronising to Annan, they are probably classed by some as their Wee team, just as Gretna were pre the GR£TNA days, when even then they were never our rivals; only despised by many and hated by others.

With regards to our final game against GR£TNA, I have often wondered on subsequent visits to Raydale whether or not the amount of thumping that was so rhythmically sounded out on the shed roof had anything to do with said roof no longer being in place ( I can still see bit after bit of it leaving its fixings )

[Homer Thompson]

9 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Tend to agree with this. It was very short lived but there was definitely a rivalry with Mileson's Gretna, mostly of their creation. Prior to his arrival they were seen largely as Annan are now, as a smaller local side that most Queens fans were happy to see do well and maybe even went to watch if Queens werent playing. In contrast to Stranraer who were and are traditional rivals though like Grant said, not one I would wish genuine ill to.

Gretna was different. There was genuine hatred of what they became. Their "business model" (dont laugh!) was basically to invade Dumfries and take our fans and future fans. As much as a shyster as Mileson was he wasnt stupid and knew that the only way to grow the Gretna brand was to impinge on our catchment. So he bankrolled a programme whereby Gretna provided free coaching for Dumfries schools, gave hundreds of free tickets to families in Dumfries, sponsored local youth teams and combined with the recruitment of premier standard players, winning every week and sugar coated media coverage all led to a significant attack on our club. I still havent truly forgiven one of my wife's friends who thought it was funny to ask why I didnt "go watch a good team like Gretna" when I came back from some fruitless trip up Scotland to see Queens lose while she and her family had watched the Gretna machine they couldnt have named a player at a year earlier dismantle some other group of innocents on their free schools tickets. Or clowns who threw their lot into following the glory at Gretna and were quick to tell you how much better than Queens they were in the pub. And thats a decade on.

I revelled in their defeats and was almost delighted when the thing collapsed like the house of cards we had said it was all along while the media fawned like sycophants over Mileson and his lending his car to 'Dr Goals' and making donations to Supporters Trust at half the teams they met.

And yet they were undeniably good for us in the long run. The immediate benefit of nabbing Tosh, McQuilken and Macfarlane and ending up in the cup final is obvious, as is the fact that their longest serving player is now our manager, but it was more in the background that long term response was crucial. The club and fans were galvanised. A genuine community programme was instigated that still runs today. We got involved in schools ourselves and rethought our own strategies to address the challenge. It was being met even before they imploded and we are a much bigger and stronger club now with far greater roots in our own community. Gretna are back to being a local club serving their community and one I am happy to see do well, particularly at the moment with four of our players on loan there and the likes of Stuart Rome, Danny Armstrong, Jack Dickinson and Dylan Neill all recently ex Queens too.

Perhaps its semantics but I wouldnt call what you describe as a rivalry. Everything you say is correct, of course, but for me it explains a dislike/hatred rather than a rivalry.

As others have said, no one wants to see their rivals in trouble or go out of business. I dont think many Queens fans felt any kind of sympathy when Gretna went under.

[kleinfaethetoon]

The Stranraer match is the traditional derby for Queens, even though geographically they are 80 miles away, as they would have been the two largest clubs in the region.

Stranraer, formed in 1870 were waiting until Queens were formed in 1919 to have a derby match in the region. I'm not sure if Stranraer ever played vs. Queen of the Wanderers or other such clubs in the intervening years.

Your quite correct that is the 'traditional' derby fixture but normally 'derby' matches are more for geographical reasons !!!

Mind my first visit to Stranraer the Scottish cup tie in season 84/85 sure we won 6-4 and also remember a fair few fights in and out of stair park !!!

[Sloop John B]

4 hours ago, Mr X said:

Perhaps its semantics but I wouldnt call what you describe as a rivalry. Everything you say is correct, of course, but for me it explains a dislike/hatred rather than a rivalry.

As others have said, no one wants to see their rivals in trouble or go out of business. I dont think many Queens fans felt any kind of sympathy when Gretna went under.

Gretna wasn't like most traditional clubs as they had such a short time span to build a history between teams  so you can't look at it in the same way as Falkirk Vs Dunfermline or any traditional rivalry. If anything their main sporting rivals were St Johnstone. But on similar lines of what SD said the fact they were perceived  to be a direct threat to the existence of the club by targetting the same resources and unseating a traditional sporting powerhouse in the context of Dumfries and Galloway that had perhaps gotten complacent with how it was operating. 

A competitor makes you change your practices across all forms of life, we certainly did and whilst It wasn't exactly Rangers vs Celtic, AFC Wimbledon vs MK Donsor WWE vs WCW. But it was bitter enough in the short period to be a rivalry, like Donald Trump's presidential campaign vs The Human Race. 

[RUSTY1111]

Your quite correct that is the 'traditional' derby fixture but normally 'derby' matches are more for geographical reasons !!!

Mind my first visit to Stranraer the Scottish cup tie in season 84/85 sure we won 6-4 and also remember a fair few fights in and out of stair park !!!

I remember Stranraer winning 5-0 at Palmerston in a league match, sometime in the late 90s or early 2000s.

[KingfaetheSooth]

17 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Tend to agree with this. It was very short lived but there was definitely a rivalry with Mileson's Gretna, mostly of their creation. Prior to his arrival they were seen largely as Annan are now, as a smaller local side that most Queens fans were happy to see do well and maybe even went to watch if Queens werent playing. In contrast to Stranraer who were and are traditional rivals though like Grant said, not one I would wish genuine ill to.

Gretna was different. There was genuine hatred of what they became. Their "business model" (dont laugh!) was basically to invade Dumfries and take our fans and future fans. As much as a shyster as Mileson was he wasnt stupid and knew that the only way to grow the Gretna brand was to impinge on our catchment. So he bankrolled a programme whereby Gretna provided free coaching for Dumfries schools, gave hundreds of free tickets to families in Dumfries, sponsored local youth teams and combined with the recruitment of premier standard players, winning every week and sugar coated media coverage all led to a significant attack on our club. I still havent truly forgiven one of my wife's friends who thought it was funny to ask why I didnt "go watch a good team like Gretna" when I came back from some fruitless trip up Scotland to see Queens lose while she and her family had watched the Gretna machine they couldnt have named a player at a year earlier dismantle some other group of innocents on their free schools tickets. Or clowns who threw their lot into following the glory at Gretna and were quick to tell you how much better than Queens they were in the pub. And thats a decade on.

I revelled in their defeats and was almost delighted when the thing collapsed like the house of cards we had said it was all along while the media fawned like sycophants over Mileson and his lending his car to 'Dr Goals' and making donations to Supporters Trust at half the teams they met.

And yet they were undeniably good for us in the long run. The immediate benefit of nabbing Tosh, McQuilken and Macfarlane and ending up in the cup final is obvious, as is the fact that their longest serving player is now our manager, but it was more in the background that long term response was crucial. The club and fans were galvanised. A genuine community programme was instigated that still runs today. We got involved in schools ourselves and rethought our own strategies to address the challenge. It was being met even before they imploded and we are a much bigger and stronger club now with far greater roots in our own community. Gretna are back to being a local club serving their community and one I am happy to see do well, particularly at the moment with four of our players on loan there and the likes of Stuart Rome, Danny Armstrong, Jack Dickinson and Dylan Neill all recently ex Queens too.

Pretty much my view as well, albeit mostly observed from a distance. That said, it remains a disappointment that Queens also managed to get into financial difficulties when 'living the dream' under Davie Rae as Chairman. I would imagine that the lessons under his stewardship when communication with the fans was via a Rangers supporting Director have also played a part in where we are now.

The current Board appear to be more astute financially, with community engagement and with communications generally, although they mainly pay lip service to the fans' groups IMLE. Credit where credit is due, we are probably in a better position as a football club (finances, community involvement etc.) on and off the pitch than at any time in the last 30 years. 

[KingfaetheSooth]

3 hours ago, Sloop John B said:

Gretna wasn't like most traditional clubs as they had such a short time span to build a history between teams  so you can't look at it in the same way as Falkirk Vs Dunfermline or any traditional rivalry. If anything their main sporting rivals were St Johnstone. But on similar lines of what SD said the fact they were perceived  to be a direct threat to the existence of the club by targetting the same resources and unseating a traditional sporting powerhouse in the context of Dumfries and Galloway that had perhaps gotten complacent with how it was operating. 

A competitor makes you change your practices across all forms of life, we certainly did and whilst It wasn't exactly Rangers vs Celtic, AFC Wimbledon vs MK Donsor WWE vs WCW. But it was bitter enough in the short period to be a rivalry, like Donald Trump's presidential campaign vs The Human Race. 

Not sure how many Wimbledon fans would view AFC Wimbledon v Milton Keynes as a rivalry. In fact, many older Wimbledon fans don't even recognise them as a football club. That said, the younger Wimbledon fans seem to think it's great, especially as both clubs are now in the same league! 

[palmy_cammy]

32 minutes ago, KingfaetheSooth said:

Pretty much my view as well, albeit mostly observed from a distance. That said, it remains a disappointment that Queens also managed to get into financial difficulties when 'living the dream' under Davie Rae as Chairman. I would imagine that the lessons under his stewardship when communication with the fans was via a Rangers supporting Director have also played a part in where we are now.

The current Board appear to be more astute financially, with community engagement and with communications generally, although they mainly pay lip service to the fans' groups IMLE. Credit where credit is due, we are probably in a better position as a football club (finances, community involvement etc.) on and off the pitch than at any time in the last 30 years. 

It was Billy Hewitson that brought Mark Robertson on board was it not?

[QoS_1919]

21 hours ago, Mr X said:

I know the point you were making but to only thinks about how Hibs are doing is, at best, short-sighted. As I said, if Hibs drop points then it means another team has gained them. The biggest challengers for the league will be the teams with the most points - that may or may not include us.

Its too early because we havent even got through the first quarter of the season yet. And talk to taking 7 points is, as MT said, getting ahead of ourselves.

We've made a great start to the season and it would be fantastic to remain unbeaten and/or still be top come the end of the first quarter but a poor run and we'd be back mid-table pretty quickly.

If I came across that I think they will be easy games, I didn't mean to. Anyone in this league can take points from each other, Dumbarton and Morton have both beat Dundee United and Ayr have beat Hibs so they will be tough games. The next time we play Hibs will be the next game I can get to because of work, so for me it'd be nice going there with a buzz that we've a few points on them.  

 

 

[paulbrucerick]

Interesting reading about Gretna here. Did many folk go from Dumfries to Raydale and was it really a big threat?

As an aside, I do remember getting the train to Gretna on Boxing Day mid naughties and the boys from Greystone got on the train as they were the ballboys! 

[overthetop]

Interesting reading about Gretna here. Did many folk go from Dumfries to Raydale and was it really a big threat?

As an aside, I do remember getting the train to Gretna on Boxing Day mid naughties and the boys from Greystone got on the train as they were the ballboys! 

I always remember going to a home game against Gretna and neighbours from our street were in the away end. Really depressing at the time.

[19QOS19]

Interesting reading about Gretna here. Did many folk go from Dumfries to Raydale and was it really a big threat?

As an aside, I do remember getting the train to Gretna on Boxing Day mid naughties and the boys from Greystone got on the train as they were the ballboys! 

Overthetop has brushed on the point I'm about to make. I think the majority of people who follow Scottish football had a dislike for Gretna but I had a genuine hate for them. A lot of it was down to the fact people from Dumfries would go to their games to watch a winning team rather than actually follow a well run team from their own town. Needless to say they soon slithered back under their rocks when the inevitable happened.

[Parkgatequeens]

I knew loads who went to Gretna games, also plenty who travel from Dumfries to watch Carlisle.

[Monkey Tennis]

I don't know if it reflected even a germ of truth, but remember that people used to say that Georgetown was full of Gretna fans.

I never saw Gretna as an existential threat to Queens, but there's no doubt that they were aggressively making inroads on where we would hope to draw our support from.  Even that isn't really so terribly wrong I suppose.  The focus on community even had some admirable elements.  The point was though that it was such a nonsense, such a vanity project and it inspired such hubris.  

The dishonesty of the pretence that titles had been anything other than bought, was nearly as nauseating as the largely unchallenged fairytale narrative, peddled by the media.

I still didn't take much joy in their collapse though.  All it meant was that a handful of local supporters saw their team hijacked and driven at high speed to its death.  Meanwhile, a bunch of daft wee fannies that were only interested in pursuing glory, dismounted unbruised and found a new fad.

A really strange episode from which, as others have said, we strangely benefited.

[die hard doonhamer]

It was Billy Hewitson that brought Mark Robertson on board was it not?

I thought that as well. He was brought in to do and say the unpopular things that needed to be done, then left, allowing the rest of the board to have some good will with support as they continue their good work.

Maybe I'm a bit cynical, but that's how I saw it.

[Monkey Tennis]

4 minutes ago, die hard doonhamer said:

 

I thought that as well. He was brought in to do and say the unpopular things that needed to be done, then left, allowing the rest of the board to have some good will with support as they continue their good work.

Maybe I'm a bit cynical, but that's how I saw it.

 

It didn't all need to be done.