Raith v Morton

[Ro Sham Bo]

I thought at the time Vaughan initiated the contact and I think the evidence backs it up,  albeit the contact is minimal. 

Regardless of whether there was contact or not it shouldn't have been a penalty. 

[Raith Against The Machine]

It's definitely not a penalty, it's a dive, but I do think there's some mitigation for the referee. It's exactly the type of scenario that looks like a penalty. 

You see it all the time where a defender only has eyes for a ball he's looking to clear, and the striker comes from his blind side and is taken out. At the time, from the other end of the ground, I called it naive defending. It's only seeing the replay that actually the defender does the right thing and doesn't take a swing or stick out a leg, he tries to keep out of the road. 

The charitability towards the referee comes from the angle that he's at. Looking at it from behind Vaughan, he's seeing the same thing I did, essentially. It's only when you rotate by 90° and go to the camera angle that you see that there's minimal contact, if any. 

Or to put it another way, it's a very good dive, if you'll allow for such a thing. With the movement of both players and the ball, there's a high expectation that there could be a foul, which completely sells it to the ref. 

[Daz80]

https://x.com/spfl/status/1691052220928663552?s=46&t=ikYV2U4s0xQFANE1GtKNwQ
 

for those looking for the goal without commentary 

[TxRover]

1 hour ago, Raith Against The Machine said:

It's definitely not a penalty, it's a dive, but I do think there's some mitigation for the referee. It's exactly the type of scenario that looks like a penalty. 

You see it all the time where a defender only has eyes for a ball he's looking to clear, and the striker comes from his blind side and is taken out. At the time, from the other end of the ground, I called it naive defending. It's only seeing the replay that actually the defender does the right thing and doesn't take a swing or stick out a leg, he tries to keep out of the road. 

The charitability towards the referee comes from the angle that he's at. Looking at it from behind Vaughan, he's seeing the same thing I did, essentially. It's only when you rotate by 90° and go to the camera angle that you see that there's minimal contact, if any. 

Or to put it another way, it's a very good dive, if you'll allow for such a thing. With the movement of both players and the ball, there's a high expectation that there could be a foul, which completely sells it to the ref. 

The only real way that refereeing and games will improve would be retrospective punishments for players in these situations…but where’s the line? If there’s an announcement that Smyth for Loch United was adjudged to have simulated a trip by Broon of But an’ Ben FC, resulting in a penalty, which won the match for LU, and gained promotion for LU, what does Smyth paying a fine or missing a couple of matches do? LU is still promoted, BBFC is still effectively punished, etc.

Even with retrospective punishment, the results remain the same, so there is still the reality that players may “take one for the team”. More referees or VAR have both proven unpopular (the two referee system quietly disappeared in the late 80’s and everyone hates what VAR has done to the game as it currently is applied) and don’t seem like solutions. Given that the top leagues have massive referee training budgets, loads of cameras, and the same problem, it’s not getting fixed. Until the top leagues make diving unacceptable, it will percolate down to the pub leagues.

Edited August 14, 2023 by TxRover

[basher brash]

The majority of the Rovers fans acknowledge the first penalty award was never a penalty , However some people forget we were 1-0 up at the time and who knows which way the game would have went however should Morton fans not be more concerned with there centre half who cost them the 3rd goal and who also gave away the penalty ? Easy option to blame Vaughan and the ref however if Broadfoot had defended correctly we may have been having a different discussion now 

Edited August 14, 2023 by basher brash

[Chippyminton]

Fair play to Raith supporters for acknowledging the dive. But in the other incident, the ball was clearly over the Morton goal line, so evens all round and justice prevailed. I also agree with virtually all of the points made in the posts above regarding refereeing, VAR and so on. And yes - your 3rd goal was directly attributable to Broadfoot's halfway-line howler. He put his hands up straightaway and took it on the chin, as Dougie Imrie mentioned in his post-match interview. Professional fitba players (especially at our level) aren't infallible, perfect, flawless machines. They all screw up from time to time, and I'm sure that you'll probably lose a game this season because of one player's mistake -  as will every club, most probably. Pointing the finger and apportioning blame for a game loss, however, isn't the best thing to do as all it does is to destroy a player's confidence - a critical factor in how he'll play next week and the week after. And the next week after that. Learn from it and make sure it doesn't happen again.

Regarding the insanity-level yellow card count - this wasn't a dirty, antagonistic game by any stretch of the imagination. From where I was standing, it simply looked like two very committed teams going at it - especially from Rovers perspective, with a clear and understandable motivation to make their support happy during their first home game of the season. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. But to write us off as thugs and hammer-throwers isn't altogether fair. it really isn't. We get stuck into the job for sure - but we also play some lovely, flowing fitba which is entertaining to watch and is usually very effective. And for sure - we're horrible to play against through our ability to stifle our opposition. That's all part of what makes Morton ...... well -  Morton. Our supporters are proud of our team and proud of our manager (still in his first-ever 1st team rmanagement role incidentally), who's consistently made top-notch bargain-budget signings of previously written-off players and has somehow encouraged them to give of their very, very best. Check out Robbie Muirhead's pre-Morton record for example. Spoiler alert = it's not great.

Until we meet again. We'll be doing our Kray-Twins-Slasher-Gang-XI best to ensure that there's no Sam Leitch shenanigans next time.

Best wishes from Greenock. 

[btb]

Delighted to see Morton being descried as an "absolute gang" and a bunch of "hammer throwers", as a regular attender of three "Championship" winning seasons I'd like to point out that this is one of  the requirements - C'mon up Morton!

[Rovers_Lad]

1 hour ago, Chippyminton said:

Fair play to Raith supporters for acknowledging the dive. But in the other incident, the ball was clearly over the Morton goal line, so evens all round and justice prevailed. I also agree with virtually all of the points made in the posts above regarding refereeing, VAR and so on. And yes - your 3rd goal was directly attributable to Broadfoot's halfway-line howler. He put his hands up straightaway and took it on the chin, as Dougie Imrie mentioned in his post-match interview. Professional fitba players (especially at our level) aren't infallible, perfect, flawless machines. They all screw up from time to time, and I'm sure that you'll probably lose a game this season because of one player's mistake -  as will every club, most probably. Pointing the finger and apportioning blame for a game loss, however, isn't the best thing to do as all it does is to destroy a player's confidence - a critical factor in how he'll play next week and the week after. And the next week after that. Learn from it and make sure it doesn't happen again.

Regarding the insanity-level yellow card count - this wasn't a dirty, antagonistic game by any stretch of the imagination. From where I was standing, it simply looked like two very committed teams going at it - especially from Rovers perspective, with a clear and understandable motivation to make their support happy during their first home game of the season. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. But to write us off as thugs and hammer-throwers isn't altogether fair. it really isn't. We get stuck into the job for sure - but we also play some lovely, flowing fitba which is entertaining to watch and is usually very effective. And for sure - we're horrible to play against through our ability to stifle our opposition. That's all part of what makes Morton ...... well -  Morton. Our supporters are proud of our team and proud of our manager (still in his first-ever 1st team rmanagement role incidentally), who's consistently made top-notch bargain-budget signings of previously written-off players and has somehow encouraged them to give of their very, very best. Check out Robbie Muirhead's pre-Morton record for example. Spoiler alert = it's not great.

Until we meet again. We'll be doing our Kray-Twins-Slasher-Gang-XI best to ensure that there's no Sam Leitch shenanigans next time.

Best wishes from Greenock. 

Good post

[Specky Ginger]

After watching the Wolves penalty claim tonight, anyone who thinks VAR would be guaranteed to arrive at the correct decision is deluded.

[Zen Archer (Raconteur)]

1 minute ago, Specky Ginger said:

After watching the Wolves penalty claim tonight, anyone who thinks VAR would be guaranteed to arrive at the correct decision is deluded.

I quite lie VAR, maybe we can get St Johnstone's next season.

[Alibi]

21 hours ago, Double Jack D said:

The still frame below would suggest there was contact. There's no doubt goes down looking for it but there was definitely contact.

I watched the video clip many times and it looks as if the defender is just standing there when Vaughan flings himself to the ground.  I don't think you can really tell from a still photo.

Regarding Quitongo last season (the 93rd minute penalty), it did look as if he was impeded and he made sure that he went down, but it wasn't a dive - IIRC the defender had grabbed him or his shirt.

[Double Jack D]

7 minutes ago, Alibi said:

I watched the video clip many times and it looks as if the defender is just standing there when Vaughan flings himself to the ground.  I don't think you can really tell from a still photo.

Regarding Quitongo last season (the 93rd minute penalty), it did look as if he was impeded and he made sure that he went down, but it wasn't a dive - IIRC the defender had grabbed him or his shirt.

Vaughan definitely plays for it, no doubt...as did Quitongo in that incident last season. 

They're either both penalties or both dives. I think I'd prefer they were both classed as dives and the players booked for unsportsmanship behaviour. I'd think most football fans would think the same.

 

 

[Scosha]

A reminder we didn’t get a penalty for this in the same game last season. So spare us the pish that Saturday’s dive made up for anything Quitongo may or may not have done in the past. 

[Raithie]

1 hour ago, Scosha said:

A reminder we didn’t get a penalty for this in the same game last season. So spare us the pish that Saturday’s dive made up for anything Quitongo may or may not have done in the past. 

Inconclusive, need another angle.

[Hank Scorpio]

Tuesday afternoon and they’re still raging.

[grumswall]

3 hours ago, Scosha said:

A reminder we didn’t get a penalty for this in the same game last season. So spare us the pish that Saturday’s dive made up for anything Quitongo may or may not have done in the past. 

You seem to forget that millen shouted he was in goal just before this..

[Dunning1874]

Just back from a weekend away so only gotten around to watching the highlights today.

The first goal is excellently worked from a Raith perspective, but you have to question what the hell our defence is doing for two players to get that much space within 10 yards of our goal. I've watched it several times and I can't even figure out who's supposed to be with Vaughan's run, while Easton's given too much room in the first place.

The penalty for the second is clearly a laughable decision, as the tone of the Raith TV commentary tells you. Surely no one other than the ref thought it was a penalty at the time.

Our first is well worked but if I was a Raith fan I'd be as pissed off with it as Morton fans about Raith's first. It's an excellent cross and header but the amount of space McGrattan has to put the cross in is ridiculous with no one bothering to track an overlapping full back.

Our second, good to see we're effective at picking up second balls when attacking set-pieces, not the first goal we've scored that way this season when it's not something we did often last season.

Broadfoot for the third is howling. It could be an overreaction to one mistake because he's been absolutely solid so far prior to that mistake having played every game, but being so far off keeping up with Smith when trying to get back in raises a question mark over whether you can depend on a player that slow to play every week. He's absolutely earned his place with performances so far but he was brought in for the Efe experienced third choice role and it'll interesting to see what happens when Baird is back fit, assuming we have a right back by then as well.

[Double Jack D]

17 hours ago, Dunning1874 said:

Just back from a weekend away so only gotten around to watching the highlights today.

The first goal is excellently worked from a Raith perspective, but you have to question what the hell our defence is doing for two players to get that much space within 10 yards of our goal. I've watched it several times and I can't even figure out who's supposed to be with Vaughan's run, while Easton's given too much room in the first place.

The penalty for the second is clearly a laughable decision, as the tone of the Raith TV commentary tells you. Surely no one other than the ref thought it was a penalty at the time.

Our first is well worked but if I was a Raith fan I'd be as pissed off with it as Morton fans about Raith's first. It's an excellent cross and header but the amount of space McGrattan has to put the cross in is ridiculous with no one bothering to track an overlapping full back.

Our second, good to see we're effective at picking up second balls when attacking set-pieces, not the first goal we've scored that way this season when it's not something we did often last season.

Broadfoot for the third is howling. It could be an overreaction to one mistake because he's been absolutely solid so far prior to that mistake having played every game, but being so far off keeping up with Smith when trying to get back in raises a question mark over whether you can depend on a player that slow to play every week. He's absolutely earned his place with performances so far but he was brought in for the Efe experienced third choice role and it'll interesting to see what happens when Baird is back fit, assuming we have a right back by then as well.

Just to add in to the Broadfoot bashing, the penalty he gave away after that was howling too. Only took a bit of magic from Jammer to keep it at 3.

[callum-ayr]

19 hours ago, grumswall said:

You seem to forget that millen shouted he was in goal just before this..

Any man keeper allowed once every quarter, great addition to the Cinch.

[Dunning1874]

On 12/08/2023 at 17:28, R.R.FC said:

I really don’t know why Morton fans are so defensive about their team being called hammer throwers or physical, it is blindingly obvious.

An absolutely horrible side to play against and watch, that should be a complement though, stick to what you are good at and they do it well. Very much in Imrie’s image.

On this, yeah fans/managers/players of other clubs calling us a horrible side to play against is great. It's good to be widely disliked and especially when it's coming from a manager you can tell it means we're actually an opponent a lot of teams dread playing against now, unlike the several years pre-Imrie of managers trotting out "this is a tough place to come" cliches after effortlessly waltzing away from Cappielow with three points. I'd greatly enjoy watching a team which are the most physical in their division hammer throwing their way to wins - the half season where we successfully did that under Davie Irons was outstanding fun.

There's still a point to be made about why this Morton team are horrible to play against though. The entire tactical approach is based on playing at 100mph in and out of possession, being direct with the ball and relentlessly pressing teams high up the park without it. That must be annoying as f**k as a player knowing you're going to have Crawford, Blues, Quitongo and others tearing after you never giving any time on the ball, and having energetic wee b*****ds nipping around your ankles making tackles must be frustrating, while this contributes to the number of freekicks we give away.

That was all true of our style of play last season as well, when the biggest weakness in the Morton team by a mile was being tiny. We lost at Cappielow five times; four of them were against Ayr and Arbroath, precisely because they turned the games into physical head tennis shitfests where our centre backs had no option on but a hoof towards the centre forward, knowing that Morton couldn't cope with a game like that because our midfield would get flattened and our attackers couldn't compete with their defences in the air due to our lack of physicality away from the centre backs. We were horrible because of nippy wee shites getting in faces and not giving any time on the ball while being annoyingly effective at timewasting, not winning physical contests. Yet this narrative about big physical hammer throwing Morton was present last season as well, despite us frequently having the smallest XI in the division.

Adding Power this season should hopefully go a long way to addressing the lack of physicality in midfield, while Broadfoot has so far been a total shithouse who wants to get involved in scraps, so we are definitely more physical and more shithousey than last season. This is a good thing which I wanted to happen, so if we're hearing even more complaints about hammer throwing because it's actually happening now then great.

As I said previously I wasn't at the game on Saturday so can't comment on that - it's clear enough from the total state of this thread that it was a bad tempered game - but the problem last season was that this narrative was trotted out every time we won and it never actually happened. It was as if people were hearing "horrible to play against" and saw the wyscout stats about number of long balls played then just joined the dots that this must mean it's a team of man mountains who elbow everything that moves and always go route one to a centre forward, when it was actually a team whose biggest weakness was a lack of height where the regular long balls were mostly aimed at finding the feet of wingers. The addition of Oakley in January did at least give us a centre forward who had the slightest hope of competing with defenders, but Muirhead is never going to be a target man. Any time we were going route one to Oakley for 90 minutes we lost.

Having seen none of the bookings from Saturday I can't comment if it was evidence that the welcome addition of physicality this summer has actually made us capable of being the ones dishing out the industrial challenges if a game descends into that after lacking that presence last season, but the problem was that this narrative doesn't just get in the heads of other managers and teams but referees as well. Teams like Ayr and Partick absolutely kicked the shit out of us last season and consistently got away with it because referees were already subconsciously looking out for big bad physical Morton having bought the narrative. If we end up with referees doing that this season because it's actually true now then fine, that's a price worth paying for actually being able to compete in a game that descends into that type of scrap now, but if everyone's talking about us being hammer throwers again it's natural to be wary that we're once again going to be watching Brian Graham elbow everyone on the park with impunity while Oakley is penalised whenever the ball goes within 5 yards of him.